Sitting here watching the Hornets mangle the Wizards in a pre-season game, MoPete comes down the court on the break, pulls up, and nails a jumper. On the next possession, he plays some strong defense, and forces a tough shot (that doesn’t drop). Now don’t get me wrong, the guy was a streaky shooter who drove me nuts from time to time, but he played solid defense on the wing, took it to the rack, and hit a decent percentage of his jumpers from the perimeter.
Remind you of something? It should, since it is exactly what the Raptors have been lacking from a starting 3 since he left. Let me repeat that, LEFT. Not traded, but up and signed with another team. And not just any team, a Western Conference powerhouse (Hornets). Not only that, he is starting for them…
As a restricted free-agent, the Hornets tendered him a 3yr/$15mill contract that the Raptors matched. But as a free agent, BryCo let the man walk, and replaced him with Moon, Delfino and Kapono, at double the cost. Then he up and let Delfino walk this summer…
You can hear my blood boiling can’t you?
Reflecting on the guys BryCo has let walk over the last few seasons is upsetting. Guys that have value, who fill a need for this team were allowed to walk, and I have to ask why….WHY?
Quickly:
Carlos Delfino
We could have definitely use this guy. He was a streaky scorer, but he scored - and not just from the perimeter. He was one of the few Raptors who attacked the rim consistently. He played some decent defense, and grabbed some boards. He may not have been able to match the Russian mob money lining his pockets, but an attempt at least? Seeing as the Raptors are thin at the wing, I don’t get it…just ridiculous.
Jorge Garbajosa
This one is a little more understandable. Bad blood with the world championship fiasco last season. But what I don’t get is how BryCo can speak to his value to the team during a press conference, then let the guy walk a month or so later, and not do anything to replace him and what he brought…*sigh*
Primoz Brezec
The gangsta wouldn’t have been a regular contributor, but he was essentially replaced by a raw Australian who has a heart condition. Good move? No.
Pape Sow
Didn’t contribute anything except some hustle in the 14 minutes he saw on the floor during his tenure with the team, but I really liked him, and wanted to mention him.
Morris Peterson
A fan favourite who is clearly a starter in the league walks for nothing. Not even a marginal sign-and-trade for a second rounder and an end-of-the-bench player…disgusting.
Mike James
Coming off a career season, and with the guy clearly having value around the league (I seem to remember both Minnesota and Houston actively courting him), he could have been packaged in a sign-and-trade to get something back for him, but no, nothing…inexcusable. (side note: I’m actually glad he’s not a Raptor, just have always contended that we should have got something for him).
That’s a lot of talent to just up and walk away from this team without getting anything from them, much less keep them here because you know, they are good, and could help this team.
Technorati Tags: Bryan Colangelo, Carlos Delfino, Jamario Moon, Jason Kapono, Jorge Garbajosa, Mike James, Morris Peterson, New Orleans Hornets, Pape Sow, Primoz Brezec, Washington Wizards
October 15th, 2008 at 1:31 am
That is maybe the worst peice I have ever read on here.
Mo Pete is the worst starter on New Orleans if he could have ever been consistant he would still be here.
He was let walk away because the Raps used the money to sign Kapono who may not have had a great year himself however if you ask 30 GM’s who they would rather have going forward Mo Pete of Kapono how many would say Mo Pete no more then 10 if any at all.
Delfino was not replaced due to a budget which was used to fill our biggest weaknesses Defence, rebounding, second option, shot blocker, shot changer… JO
Garbo was disapointing but again it was ugly between him and management and Team Spain and the Raps saved a few bucks which probably which also helped us add the Oneal contract.
Primo was not going to sign for Baby Shaq money and is no big loss.
Pape Sow… You liked Pape Sow? Something tells me the crushing departure of Pape Sow we will some how overcome. Maybe Arujo can take his place.
Mike James was not brought back because we went out and traded for TJ Ford a good up and comming point guard and the money was used to sign Anthony Parker, Garbo, trade for Rasho, and we went from a laughing stock to division champion and your saying we got nothing for Mike James. WOW!!!
Sometimes you let a player walk “”for nothing”" in order to use that money on something else.
As were about to watch the greatest Raps season in our lives I have to read about getting nothing for Mike James and you like Pape Sow.
With all due respect your so better then that.
It’s not like there is nothing else to talk about. We did play a game tonight. We did have Andrea, JO, CB4 all on the court together. We did see Sam play Jose the entire 2nd half and lash out on a couple of his players instead of the media after the game and you write you miss Pape Sow and Mo Pete is what we need.
Mo Pete is a poor mans Anthony Parker.
If the Hornets had AP instead of Mo Pete and his inconsistand play the beat the Spurs and who knows what they do against the Lakers.
I would not trade Moon for Mo-Pete even if there salaries matched.
I love Mo-Pete he is classy and a nice player but lets not get silly thinking he is this missing piece we so desperately need.
New Orleans noticed he was there biggest weakness last year and went out an got Posey sure they needed depth but at the end of games Mo Pete will be sitting watching most likely after going 2-10 from the floor.
NOW IF WE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS BC HAS SIGNED AND AT WHAT PRICE
AP- AT 4 MILLION 12.5 POINTS A GAME AND A SOLID PLAYER HE WAS AND STILL IS A STEAL
GARBO- IF HE DID NOT GET HURT WE ALL KNOW THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A HUGE FACTOR (UNLUCKY)
JK- MAYBE OVERPAID A TAD BUT IF MITCHELL KNEW WHAT A DOUBLE SCREEN WAS INSTEAD OF RUNNING A PICK AND ROLL 99 PERCENT OF THE TIME WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE OF A FACTOR AND WILL BE MUCH BETTER THIS YEAR.
MOON- SURE HE HAS WEAKNESSES BUT AT HIS PRICE IS THE BIGGEST STEAL OF ALMOST ANY PLAYER IN THE NBA.
Now Raps Fan i know its the preseason and maybe you got caught up in a Mo Pete flashback I forgive you but please please come with better stuff then this.
I have read your posts before and there usually solid but this is Khandor-like crap and we as readers expect so much more…
GO RAPS
October 15th, 2008 at 6:04 am
heh… “Khandor-like crap”? Them’s fightin’ words!
October 15th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
they are!
BryCo has let a lot of talent just up and walk, and either replaced it at a higher cost, or not at all. that is all i’m trying to say. we have let 3 starters and a 6th man walk in the last few years, and didn’t do a whole lot to replace them in the lineup.
sure mopete walked and we signed kapono, but he didn’t replace mopete in the slightest.
sure we signed moon, but we could have done that anyway, i make more then the guy, lol jk.
October 15th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Its 65-70 million on 12-15 guys.
No matter how you spin it. Do you think anyone in NY is going to say you let Stephon Marbury walk a way for nothing or are they going to say there is 20 million we have to spend. The fact is when BC took over we were a joke, and know were are a legit team. Job well done, His record here speaks for it self and sure he has made some mistakes all GMS do even good ones (Joe Dumars drafted Darko over Wade, Bosh and Carmello) But all and all he has been this franchises saviour.
You know it, I know everyone on here not named Khandor knows it.
So lets talk about the team and not Pape Sow and Mike James and Mo Pete unless you miss winning 20 plug games a season.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:09 pm
I have to agree with Shayne, this article is horrible (Khandor type of bull*** INDEED!!!) Shayne is part of the few that can see beyond the obvious, BryCo let delfino go to take mare sure he won’t have to gamble on resigning bosh in ‘10. Mo’Pete (with all due respect to the guy) will not be the player on the floor for the hornets and I wouldn’t be surprised that now that they have posey and butler is playing well they’ll make a move for him. I’d take kapono over him anyday, but i have to keep praing to god for Smitch to use the best shooter in the league (in my opinion) more than he is at the moment. This article talks about letting pap sow go … that just proves that this article is written just to write … its content is bullshit, sorry but you gotta come up with something better.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
I’m fine with every one of those decisions. Keeping talent just because they’re a trade asset can be very risky business, especially when they’re signing contracts above their value on the court.
Which player and their contracts would you want on the Raptors now?
- Mike James - bad contract - nope - traded twice for little value
- Mo Peterson - bad contract - nope
- Carlos Delfino - bad contract - nope (and the Raps still have his rights correct?)
- Primo Brezec - bad player who hurts the Raptors team, don’t want him on the roster. No trade value either.
- Pape Sow - The man always brings a smile to my face, but who seriously cares? At best he’s a borderline NBA player and easily replaceable.
Garbajosa was an irritating scenario. I don’t care if the front office and himself had a dispute … that isn’t a good enough reason …. they’re big boys, act like it. Was he healthy enough to play? The Raps say no and I’ll take their word at that, so overall I’m okay with him leaving. I thought they mishandled his departure and should have tried harder to package him a trade before buying him out. I think they could have waited one extra month and still left Garbo enough time to find a new club.
So I’ve no problem with any of those decisions with a small note on Garbajosa.
——————————————————-
The recent decisions the club has made over the past two years have been fine (except Kapono) …. it’s the non-decisions that are hurting the team right now.
For example, the Jermaine trade is fine and helps the team, but in order to be truly successful and to improve the Raptors postseason chances consequential moves were required … and they weren’t made. It’s the non-decisions that are killing the team. No good reason for that, only bad reasons.
——————————————————-
I’ve been pondering on it for awhile now … and my best guess as to the reason for this, is that Colangelo has an inaccurate evaluation of his team and it’s effecting his decision-making.
He’ll likely take a bit of time - I’m thinking the season, but hopefully he’s quicker than that and figures it out before the trading deadline - to get a firm grip on where the team actually is and what it actually needs …. the question is does he fire Sam Mitchell to avoid blame? Or does he fire Sam before he realizes he himself is to blame?
Sam is in a bad place right now, I’m worried about his future here, and that depresses me.
Either that or Colangelo is looking past the next two years, and planning for 2010 … with Bargnani to play a major role on those teams. We’ll know the answer to this second part by the types of contracts - whether free agency or trade - he’s willing to accept over the next 6-12 months.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
i appreciate the feedback, but let me pose another question. suppose for the next two seasons, we go about 42-48 wins and a first round exit (i’m not saying it is going to happen, just a hypothetical scenario), will bosh really want to resign given so many other teams are clearing cap space to try to lure him, wade or lebron away?
the point of writing this crap article was to just highlight some of the moves that bryco made (or didn’t make) that has affected depth.
we have lost delfino and mopete, both of whom take the ball to the rack, hit some jumpers and play decent defense.
you can’t look at this team and say we are solid at 3, cause we’re not. fact is, smitch wont be changing much, and hasn’t shown anything new in the last few games. i don’t expect much great new stuff from him, so using kapono more effectively may not happen.
so we are two 3’s short, and not using kapono right, where does that leave us?
i never said mopete was a great player, just that he had value, like the other people i listed (aside from sow, i just like the guy). and we could have got assets for them, even if it were a 2nd round pick, lord knows we are short on young talent.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:51 pm
Its a catch 22
I f you never try to win that players won’t stay however if you win42-48 games and don’t advance were stuck in neutral…
What if Moon or Joey breakout and Andrea is solid then we can win 50-58 games not likely but possible and its a good team better then Khandors and Babcocks crap.
Seriously is it not possible we could win the East (bowmans has us ranked 5th likely to win the East just behind Orlando and Clevland.
How many teams could win the West (personally i think the Lakers will win but Utah, San Antonio, New Orleans, Houston, Phoexnix all have a chance as a GM that is call you can do is put togther a good team and hope they saty healthy and see what happens clearly this has been done in Toronto, despite the fans perception. I am not saying we are the favorite but I could see 4-6 teams winning the East and we are one of them and I for one like that better then 20-30 wins and hoping we win the lottery but thats just me.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Sorry is hould have prof read before i sent last piece.
But you know what I am trying to say.
October 15th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
no for sure, you make a good point. if one of those guys can step up, it changes everything. i hate counting on what ifs though.
on a different note, i hope the lakers don’t take the west, i can’t stand them (although you can count me a big ariza fan). my money is on houston, utah or new orleans.
October 15th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Raps Fan,
IMO … individuals like RBS and nabz are never going to get what you’ve been trying to say here.
Anyone who thinks that a franchise’s ‘Saviour’ has arrived already when that franchise has advanced past the 1st Round of the NBA Playoffs exactly one time in its history, which was prior to that person’s arrival and includes the last 2.5 years with this individual on-board as the current Captain of the ship … has already made up their their mind and will not be changing it anytime soon … regardless of ‘the crap’ they read in this space or somewhere else on-line.
As long as the Raptors continue to field a ‘competitive’ team each year and qualify for the Playoffs on a consistent basis these are precisely the sort of fans MLSE wants to have in support of this franchise, in perpetuity.
=====================
Dave,
———————
re: “Or does he fire Sam before he realizes he himself is to blame?”
———————
After that … nothing more needs to be said.
October 15th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
i totally missed Dave’s comment, and i agree that nothing more needs to be said after his comment about Sam being fired. The over/under on his departure is still December 8th as far I’m concerned. i’m not his biggest fan, but in all fairness, he hasn’t been given the best chance to succeed with the raptors as it seems he is always a piece or two short of doing anything substantial (if he can in fact do anything substantial with the right pieces).
October 15th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Dave: i never said i would want to keep them, but the fact that the team that signed them to a contract means they had value to them. sending them in a sign-and-trade for a pick or some sort of prospect isn’t that risky. draft picks always have value, and can be moved rather easily.
primoz may not have had any value, but baston was used as trade fodder, reason dictates that primoz (who was a more accomplished nba’er) could have been used in the same scenario.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Yes I was following you Raps Fan … but I got sidetracked in my thoughts and didn’t say clearly (my mistake) what I was trying to say in that first part of my post … I’ll take another swing at it.
———————————————–
Look at Mike James, he’s been traded twice since signing that deal. The first was to Houston for Juwan Howard and ah!! (edit: Justin Reed). Two bad contracts and two players that shouldn’t be on an NBA court, both were bought out. Then he was a throw in a trade aimed at getting Bonzi Wells, for a player in Bobby Jackson who’s fallen off the map and is a below average backup point guard.
I have a hard time believing Mo Peterson has any positive trade value, otherwise the Hornets would have traded him by now after his disappointing first season in New Orleans when he both (1) failed to integrate into their offense (2) continually failed defensively, forcing Peja Stojakvoic to act as their stopper on the perimeter. He also only played 23 minutes a night on a team that had one of the weakest benches in the NBA for the first half of the season, and an average bench the rest of the way. He failed over and over and over again his first season in New Orleans (side-note: This coming season is a big year for Mo Pete).
Brezec is a player who is utterly useless for the Raptors because his flaws as a player coincide with the team’s flaws, so they become doubly worse negating any positive contribution the man could make. He can’t make any contribution to the team as a player. As a trade asset? He was traded twice in the past year. The first time he was traded with a very talented player in Walter Herrmann … and only netted Nazr Mohammed who has an atrocious contract. The second time he was traded for Juan Dixon.
———————————————-
My point …. which of these guys brings in a trade that would be beneficial to the Raptors?
You’re telling me Colangelo can’t sign a guy as good as Juan Dixon for the minimum in free agency? Of course he can. You’re telling me he can’t get someone as good as Nazr for the MLE in free agency? Of course he can. There’s nothing coming back in these trades that’s worthwhile. Nothing.
Every single of these moves are huge financial risks with a very low likelihood of making any substantial gain in a trade.
My second point …. every one of these guys signed a bad contract. Simply not paying the money and being able to use it elsewhere gives the club significant benefits.
My third point …. if the team can’t find a trade that upgrades the team (and that’s likely - Mo/James), you’re stuck with these guys and their bad contracts. Then you’ve robbed yourself of your flexibility and are stuck unable to make the moves necessary to build your team.
Also, their was no need for a sign and trade from the Hornets/Wolves perspectives. Neither Mo Pete or James were restricted free agents (not 100% sure, but I don’t think either were restricted). They could sign them freely, and they had the capability to do so with their MLEs. The Raptors had no leverage.
—————————————————-
Going back to Garbo, he was the only guy that I felt the Raps didn’t fully exploit as a trade asset before letting him leave. Maybe they pull something off, maybe not. They should have waited for another month of trade negotiations before waiving him to find out.
Each of the other player’s - Peterson/James/Brezec - departures were handled well, there was nothing left to exploit. I’m pleased with Colangelo’s decisions in each case.
——————————————————
Finally the problems with the Raptors bench don’t lie with any of these players. They don’t lie with an inability to make moves either. The Raptors could easily have a deep team this season but Colangelo didn’t make the moves the necessary.
There isn’t some insurmountable problem. Jermaine earns $21mil. Bosh $14mil. Calderon $8mil. That’s $43mil. Of course Colangelo can build a balanced and deep team around these guys.
This team does not have it’s hands tied behind it’s back … it can make the necessary moves. Those decisions just haven’t been made.
Even if he wants to do it cheap he could have built better depth for the team by signing better guys on the minimum, or taking a risk on someone like Tony Allen for $2.5mil. He needs a little more wiggle room financially then he can make a trade. Nothing is stopping this from happening.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:46 pm
quote:
“There isn’t some insurmountable problem. Jermaine earns $21mil. Bosh $14mil. Calderon $8mil. That’s $43mil. Of course Colangelo can build a balanced and deep team around these guys.”
the opportunity is definitely there, but the fact that more talent was allowed to walk then was turned into complimentary players is what is killing me.
you can’t argue that the talent that left/traded away was more substantial then what was brought in.
October 15th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Dave,
I agree with some of what you’re saying here but less so with other parts.
Several of the players listed above are of the fringe variety … which has also been the case with many of the players who Bryan Colangelo has added to the team since his arrival.
However … so too are there others who are not.
Mike James had trade value but only before the trading deadline. If the Raptors had no intention of keeping Mike then they should have moved him prior to the deadline not just let him walk away. IMO, so too is it wrong to assume that simply because the team decided not to trade Mike before the deadline that, by default, this means there was no interest in Mike elsewhere around the League.
Mo Pete falls into the same category.
Place a serviceable Fifth Big, like a Jorge Garbajosa, on this team … and the prospects for success, this season, increase considerably.
Bryan Colangelo has stated that this team, as is, is running just short of the League’s Luxury Tax Threshold and that there is no intention to exceed this salary cut-off this season.
So, how does this translate into this team having any wiggle room during the course of this season?
October 15th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Raps Fan,
The role players acquired have been less useful than the departed?
- Mo Pete is better than Kapono
- Mike James to Ukic is awaiting trial but perhaps
- Garbajosa hasn’t been replaced so yes Garbo’s better
- The other two are irrelevant and have been replaced.
The Kapono one was a bad signing but it was a legitimate attempt by Colangelo to upgrade the position, that shouldn’t get lost in the discussion … he just failed.
It’s hard to talk about Mike James considering TJ Ford and Calderon manned the point for two full seasons in between then and now. He was replaced and replaced by superior players at the time.
Garbajosa hasn’t been replaced. He’s the only one where at least an attempt wasn’t made to replace/upgrade him. Unless you consider Jamario Moon a replacement?
Khandor,
Good point, the players could have been traded before their contracts expired. I don’t necessarily agree they should trade them if not retaining their services, they still have value as players finishing the seasons …. depends on the offers I suppose. Definitely could have traded them though, and gotten something useful, the opportunity was there then. Good point.
I don’t think Mo Peterson has any type of positive trade value. I didn’t think he had prior to New Orleans, I saw no reason to think so during free agency, and I’ve seen no evidence since then. The fact that he hasn’t been traded isn’t conclusive evidence but it’s one piece of a puzzle that adds up to an uneasy situation. When your head coach, GM, and teammates all say Mo Peterson has had a bad season … chances are they’ve at least contemplated moving him.
Can you trade Mo Peterson? Sure. Is it better than having the money in the back pocket and being able to pick the best on the market? No, it’s not. I see no reason to alter that belief.
Switching gears for a moment, Khandor, you mentioned if a fifth big was acquired you’d like the chances of the team a lot more this season …. I was wondering did you mean a combo forward like Garbajosa or a big man in general? I wasn’t clear what you meant.
The team has plenty of wiggle room. The future of the franchise doesn’t revolve around Kapono or Parker or Humphries. These are all movable pieces. That’s wiggle room. The players signed in free agency could have just as easily been established NBA players signing for the minimum, again wiggle room. And the biggest piece of the puzzle is Andrea Bargnani who definitely has good trade value. The team has lots of options open to it, it’s just not availing themselves of those options. This franchise is not handcuffed.
October 15th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
from that holistic perspective, you have a point dave. and i do agree that the money is the back pocket is definitely an asset and has value. i suppose this comes full circle for me in the sense that the signings made with the ‘back pocket’ money haven’t been great, and now were at $70mill and not a lock for top 4 in the east.
i assume by 5th big he means a combo forward like garbajosa.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:36 am
Dave,
Unlike others, perhaps, I don’t consider Garbo a Combo Forward, in the NBA. In my book, he is an under-sized Big who can play PF, C and, if need be, a very mediocre SF.
Right now, I think this team needs a highly serviceable 5th Big [who is better than Nathan Jawai] and another Wing player [who is better than Hassan Adams].
===================================
I hear what you’re saying about the flexibility that exists with a potential trade this season of, let’s say, Jason Kapono for a different type of player from another team who fits into the same Salary bracket.
However, how likely is it that Bryan Colangelo will be able to trade a player with JK’s limited skill set and get in return someone in the same bracket who is also a significant upgrade on the Sundance Kid?
Same goes for AP, Jamario, Joey G and/or Hump?
I agree with the notion that right now there are 3 highly marketable players on this squad:
1 Chris Bosh;
2 Jose Calderon; and,
3 Andrea Bargnani.
If there’s going to be a significant upgrade in the talent quotient of this team it will need to be one of these three players who is moved, sometime down-the-road, IMO.
And, before it’s too late … the one I would move is Andrea Bargnani.
In my book, relative to what you’d be giving up, with what you might still be able to get for him on the open market, and what else is on the roster, at present … I think he’s the best Bargaining chip in Bryan Colangelo’s hand.
Do I think Colangelo would be willing to trade Bargnani at some point this season? … let’s say, prior to giving him a contract extension.
That’s an interesting question.
Phoenix traded a still young Steve Nash, once-upon-a-time … so it might be fair to say, “You never know; anything is possible in the NBA.”
October 16th, 2008 at 9:25 am
What do you think of Dwayne Jones?
Solid defender, very good rebounder. He’ll be cut from Orlando’s training camp over the next week or two. Quality third string center. He’ll be available on the minimum.
Only reason Orlando will cut him is that they have four legit centers ahead of him, the worst being Adonal Foyle, so they’re deep at his position.
My favourite wing player is still Bonzi Wells. We’ll see what other options fall through the cracks after training camp ends.
——————————————————
Kapono has solid trade value around the league and will be regarded (incorrectly) much like Kyle Korver. The recent success Utah had with Korver will pump up Kapono’s value (you gotta love a league that follows trends). Shooters of his quality are always trade-able.
If you move Kapono you’re likely not looking for an upgrade at the position. That’s a difficult sell. You’re looking to create flexibility either by (1) trading him for someone earning about 4mil, plus a non-guaranteed contract shaving two mil off your cap (2) Trading for an expiring contract and getting rid of his contract. Plus you gain a short term trade asset in (3) Like Phily and Korver, for a draft pick. The flexibility allows you to upgrade.
Since Kapono is such a one dimensional player, the player you acquire in return will likely be able to have a comparable overall impact … so you’re unlikely to lose too much if anything in the deal, with the new flexibility giving you major gains.
As for Anthony Parker, he has excellent value because he’s an expiring contract and high level role player. Minimal risk and good contribution in return. He can net a good MLE level player. If you combine Parker with a prospect you can net a very talented player, much like Houston did to get Artest. That’s Bargnani …. or hope that Ukic sets the world on fire over the first three months of the season …. or throw in a future first round pick.
Joey Graham …. Humphries …. not huge amount there but they’re enough to steal away someone who’s going under-appreciated at the end of another team’s bench like Shawne Williams was.
Bargnani has excellent trade value. He could bring back a borderline All-Star making $10-12mil if you match the salaries with Parker or Kapono. You’re looking for a team that’s giving up on their high priced wing, but who has good quality. Then the Raptors shift to a big four with Calderon, player X, Bosh, Jermaine … and you’re off to the races trying to fill out the rotation to legitimately contend. Like a Richard Jefferson for Yi this summer, that’s the ball park, a borderline all star or a notch below.
The second option for trading Bargnani is two high quality role players. Both starting variety. Likely to take over for AP/Moon in the starting lineup. Boost your perimeter defense, add someone who slash to diversify your offense, two guys who can run to give Calderon some finishers, two guys to help you on the boards. Balance out the team.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:44 am
bonzi would be a great pick. i am surprised there isn’t more chatter about him. he probably hasn’t recovered from his idiotic move in sac, but he is a quality three who can bang and create his own scoring opportunities.
it would be interesting if they could trade parker, move moon to 2, and start bonzi at 3.
oh, and bargnani isn’t going anywhere unless bryco gets lebron, kobe, wade, nash or something in return…aka, not gonna happen!
October 16th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Dave,
Once again, I can see where you’re coming from …
IMO, packaging Bargnani + Kapono OR Bargnani + Parker are but two examples of very interesting trade possibilities for the Raptors.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
This is why the Jermaine O Neal trade isn’t a failure, because Colangelo still has the options to put a contender on the floor.
It just involves trading Bargnani, and then re-shuffling the deck. So far it appears he’s unwilling to do that and it looks like he will remain unwilling to do that.
If Colangelo could not make further moves to make the Raps a contender, then the Jermaine trade would be a failure but that is not the case.
It’s also clear that Colangelo has had options to change and try and upgrade the supporting cast. Again that lies with him. How well Ukic/Solomon and Bargnani perform will go a long to deciding if that’s a small mistake (wings still need help) or a large mistake.
——————————————-
This is negative on Colangelo but I wouldn’t even for a heartbeat consider letting him leave. He’s a very talented GM, he’s just a little off track at the moment.
This sounds worse than it is … for example San Antonio and Utah have very good GM’s and they’re doing the exact same thing right now.
Colangelo will get the team back on track sometime in the near future. For now he has a team that is progressing, and has enough flexibility to turn them into a contender. That’s pretty good.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
re: Dwayne Jones
Would prefer a vet like Aaron Williams or a slightly younger Big with a bit more upside to his game [e.g. Paul Davis].
October 16th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Dave,
———————-
re: Colangelo will get the team back on track sometime in the near future.
———————-
What evidence have you seen, to this point, to support this position?
October 16th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Edit the idea of that last section on my post slightly:
- Colangelo is just a little off track at the moment …. like I said earlier, my best guess on his moves + interviews is that he has an inaccurate evaluation of his team.
Or …. again like I said earlier, but didn’t on that last part
- He has different goals in mind, such as rebuilding the team in 2010. Likely with Bargnani playing a big role in that new team.
In which case the consequential moves after adding Jermaine do not involve Bargnani, and do not involve anything that hurts his ability in 2010. In which case he’s probably done his job perfectly. Add in Ukic who has a good chance to learn over these next two years and no additional long term contracts.
Both cases are very much possible.
I think they’re the two most likely possibilities. Are there any other suggestions? They’re the only two that have jumped out at me.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
For such a crappy article, there sure are a lot of comments.
If Colangelo is so comfortable and is a saviour, why was he scrambling to parlay the Baby Shaq pick into $500,000-$750,000 plus 2 2nd round picks? More importantly, why was the money (he asked for a mil) more important than the picks? Why does Sam have to repeatedly say over the past week “I only have 10 healthy guys”? Because the GM has done a poor job managing this roster and the cap. I know he is hoping that the board bends and allows him to go over the luxury threshold, but what if they don’t? You comfortable riding some of the season with only 10-11 healthy guys, some of whom weren’t in the NBA last season? And you still expect this to be the best team in our history??
I, for one, have been worried after every pre-season game. Our regs are out there playing some bench guys and we still are sitting on the edge of our seats. Can’t wait to see what happens when we play the Cavs and Bronbron plays double digit minutes.
The other strike of fear that we should all feel is something I brought up in an earlier comment here. TV hates us. We have no draw and that is with the hope of our “best team ever”. TV revenues have taken a huge tumble going into this season, so less $$$ for the MLSE coffers. We are being relegated to the equivalent of ESPN2 in Canada for a good handful of games. Sad…and even sadder: MLSE had to twist TSN’s arm just to do THAT.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Khandor,
Colangalo has always been willing to make big decisions before. Some of the players he’s acquired like Raja Bell and Kurt Thomas, when combined with his more talented acquisitions, point to an understanding of how to build a title winning side. I know you’re not as high on his track record, but I think it’s a very convincing CV.
Switching back to the big man …
I like Dwayne Jones, I think he’d do good things for the Raptors.
In terms of the able minded veteran, I’d have been looking at Brian Skinner, of course he’s been snapped up already. At this stage I don’t think there’s much left on the market in terms of veteran big men …. Calvin Booth is likely the best remaining option. It looks like Austin Croshere is going to be kept by Indiana but I think he could have filled the role admirably.
A big man with more potential … Elton Brown? Try to acquire Pecherov from Washington? Not a lot of third string centers with potential, most of them are recent draft picks rather than free agents. The Portland TrailBlazer, Steven Hill? Not sure how much potential he has but he’s shown some defensive ability. He may or may not be cut in the coming fortnight.
The reason I like Jones is because he’s a good short term solution. A very steady player who can contribute right away. I wouldn’t worry about potential until later on in the day. Jones has good size for the Raps too, legit center.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
altraps: i’ve noticed that the drivel i publish has no bearing on the comments. sometimes i think i wrote something that sparks debate, but i get nothing, and sometimes i write something minor, and it explodes, case in point:
http://www.raptorstalk.com/2008/07/29/chiming-in-on-solomon/
brian skinner would be a nice addition. he played well for phoenix last season. at some point, colangelo will need to start get his hands on some young talent that can be groomed, you know, have some sort of development plan. for that, i like the paul davis’ and dwayne jones’ to come on board and play under guys like bosh/o’neal.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Dave,
re: Bell & Thomas
Acquiring those types of players isn’t really what I’m talking about.
What I meant is this:
First time through in Phoenix … Bryan Colangelo was gifted with a solid playoff team, which he then sent downhill after he responded to the J-Kidd ‘crisis’ by dealing him for Starbury. Subsequently, he traded Steve Nash.
When he got lucky and re-signed Steve Nash … principally, after Nash decided on his own to return to the Phoenix area, in order to be closer to his young family, at the time, which had never left the Phoenix area to begin with … that does qualify, in my book, as a solid franchise build-up, in conjunction with the good drafts that added Matrix and Amare.
But what happened next in the Valley of the Sun … after his father sold controlling interest in the team … doesn’t come across to me as particularly confidence-building material, re: his ability to fight through the hard times, stick around when the going gets tough, and emerge victorious, i.e. (i) His inability/unwillingness to re-sign Joe Johnson; and, (ii) His decision to leave Phoenix, for Toronto, in the first place.
Secondly.
Upon his arrival in Toronto … what I’ve seen, thus far, is that:
* He misjudged what he had initially in Jose Calderon
* He misjudged what he had initially in Chris Bosh
* He has tried to build this team up too quickly, with a rapid fire series of annual transactions involving mostly marginal NBA players; trading for a mercurial PG; reaching with the No. 1 [overall] Selection in the 2006 NBA Draft; and, now, trading for a former 6-time All-Star who may be able to regain his previous status in the League, or not.
Has he succeeded in creating a ‘winning’ team, for the short term, in Toronto?
Yes, he has … just like he was able to do with Phoenix, after heading downhill, in the first place.
Thus far, however, I just haven’t seen substantial evidence that he has the ‘Right Stuff’ it takes in this League to stick around through thick & thin or be able to construct a legit title-contending team [i.e. which must have (i) Quality Depth throughout the roster, and (ii) a Significant Big 2 [or 3], with (iii) the ability to REBOUND, DEFEND and play sound TEAM OFFENSE, over the long haul.
As an NBA aficionado, dating back to the late 60’s/early 70’s, and a Toronto Raptors fan, pre-dating the initial awarding of the franchise to the city … I sincerely hope I’m wrong, in this regard.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Khandor,
What are you referring to when you say he misjudged Bosh?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
dave, i assume he means that he drafted bargnani, who plays the same position as bosh. in all fairness to colangelo, calderon looked horrible in his first season, and only after his world championship after that first year did he do a 180 imo.
granted i am not a top level evaluator of nba talent, which colangelo should be, but came to the same conclusion.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Dave,
What position do you think Colangelo thinks is the best for CB4, in the NBA?
What position do you think he had in mind for Il Mago when he drafted him to play alongside Bosh?
Do you think Colangelo assessed accurately, at the time, who it is that Chris Bosh, the Young Man, and Redeem Team Member, is growing into before our very eyes?
What do you think are Colangelo’s impressions of what Chris’ actual strengths and weaknesses are … as a top flight player in the NBA?
=====================
IMO … Colangelo misjudged the answers to these questions initially and is now just beginning to see/realize who it is that Chris Bosh really is, as a person and player.
=====================
e.g. Colangelo also misjudged the Personality Test Results which Andrea Bargnani presented to the 2006 NBA Draft, IMO.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
garbage piece!
MoPete (8.9 ppg and 3.3 rpg) vs AP (12.5 ppg and 4.1 rpg)
You could argue that MoPete was a 3 but he was basically replaced by AP and I’d say AP was an upgrade in every facet of the game. He’s a better scorer, plays better D and comes cheaper. The only thing Mopete did was let Kobe light him up for 81.
as far as those other guys go the only one I would have kept would be Garbo, but the debacle that was the World Championships ended what would have been a great relationship. as far as getting something in return via a trade, that was never going to happen so you had to buy him out.
Pape Sow sucked balls, Primoz has shown his entire career that he is a flake of an nba player, and James was a shoot first PG who wanted way too much cash and nobody was going to give anything up for him in a sign and trade when they could get him thru free agency. I agree with the Delfino case, but russian money talks and the raps couldnt match.
Let Mopete, Pape, Primoz, James, and Delfino go and replace them with Parker, Roko, Moon, and Calderon….3 FA’s and a 2nd round pick. hit the road rapsfan, BC knows what he’s doing
October 16th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Khandor,
Colangelo - Bosh = Power forward
Colangelo - Bargnani = best talent in the draft and someone he shouldn’t pass on. I don’t think position mattered to him, only Bargnani’s talent which he regarded as special … I also believe that Colangelo felt the two could play together.
I didn’t think Bosh did anything new on Team USA. I didn’t expect Colangelo to say anything different than he did either. Nor does what he said bother me.
Colangelo’s views on Bosh as a player? …. hard to answer that but I’ll take a stab at it …. Solid defender, good rebounder, very good scorer, good passer, great teammate and good leader. Someone who he can build a team around. An All-Star big man who could become an MVP candidate … something along those lines.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
IMO …
Bosh is a Center, in the NBA.
Bosh can be the Fulcrum for a Championship team, in the NBA.
Bosh’s best skills are his Rebounding; his Team Defense, e.g. Shot-blocking, Early help, Defensive Signal calling, etc., [not his individual D]; and his Leadership.
Bosh’s best attributes are his character, his intelligence and his imagination.
———————————–
Andrea Bargnani [No. 1 overall Pick 2006] has none of these.
———————————–
Bosh is a mediocre scorer.
Bosh is a mediocre NBA athlete, overall, but has outstanding quickness for a Center.
Bosh is a mediocre shooter.
Bosh is a mediocre individual defender.
———————————–
Chris Bosh is at his best when he doesn’t have to score the ball [not that he can't do this adequately, cause he can] but can instead focus his efforts & energy on the other parts of his game … similar, but not exactly the same, as The Great Bill Russell.
Unfortunately for Chris he just hasn’t had the good fortune of going to univesity for 4 years, playing with a teammate like KC Jones, winning back-to-back NCAA D1 National Championships, playing for a coach like Phil Woolpert, then playing for the US Olympic team [winning the Gold Medal], and then playing for the Boston Celtics under Red Auerbach.
October 16th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Khandor,
Which GMs in the league today do you think would start Chris Bosh at center?
October 16th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
i could see nelson/mullin, walsh/d’antoni, kipchuk/jackson all using bosh as a center. probably missing a couople.
October 16th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Comparing a list of the top GMs in the league and a list of teams that would choose to play Chris Bosh first and foremost at center because they see it as his natural position … how many matches do you have?
It’s a tough curve to criticize Bryan Colangelo on.
October 17th, 2008 at 10:21 am
I feel that Bosh is an undersized C and I think you take him out of his rythme when you have him defending guys like Amare, Dhow, Shaq, etc. the guy is a natural PF and should be played that way. having JO take up minutes at the 5 will only preserve Bosh for the long haul.
BOSH =PF
October 17th, 2008 at 10:55 am
Having Chris Bosh save his ‘energy’ by playing behind big slow Centers in the NBA and then using his four teammates to disrupt the timing of said opponent, allowing Chris to roam free … i.e. Rebounding, Blocking Shots, Helping & Directing the D … is the way to go with this young man, in the NBA. What WILL WEAR HIM OUT, instead, is having him battle each and every night, in this League, with the other POWER Forwards, whose job it is TO BANG, hard, every game. Blaine Harrington is NOT a Banger.
Chris Bosh is a poor man’s Bill Russell, in the NBA … which is similar to how he was used with the Redeem Team.
===================================
Dave,
It’s not about putting Bryan Colangelo on a ‘curve’ of sort, and evaluating his performance against the other GM’s in the NBA.
In the NBA, ‘curves’ are for the teams who will never win the League Championship.
‘Average’ doesn’t get it done in this League.
===================================
Which of the other GM’s in the game today would have the vision it takes to use a player like Chris Bosh at his best position, on an elite level NBA team?
Not sure I have the answer to this question right now.
Kupchak has Bynum already.
Ainge has Garnett already.
Popovich/Buford has Duncan already.
Bower has Chandler already.
Pritchard has Oden already.
Morey has Yao already.
Kerr has Shaq already.
Smith has Howard already.
Maybe someone like Joe Dumars, or Pat Riley, or Ed Stefanski, or Rod Thorn/Kiki Vandeweighe, or Donnie Walsh.
October 17th, 2008 at 11:16 am
“Chris Bosh is a poor man’s Bill Russell, in the NBA … which is similar to how he was used with the Redeem Team.”
100% agreed and look how the coaching staff of the US fawned all over him in that role.
Granted, he will never be surrounded by star power on any given NBA team, but his role can be the same as it was on the Olympic team, just translated to starters minutes.
scott.
October 17th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
(1) Ainge keeps Garnett away from the center position as much as possible.
(2) Buford always signs a second center to play alongside Duncan, although Duncan isn’t the best example but he’s a center.
(3) Dumars has always tried to keep Rasheed at power forward … Nazr, Webber, and shared the duties with McDyess.
(4) Donnie Walsh always tried to keep Jermaine at the four with Brad Miller and Jeff Foster filling in at center.
Which GMs have fielded someone like Bosh at center? Or an undersized big at center as their first preference? rather than being forced into it, or having it as a later preference.
How many GMs have shifted an established All-Star’s position? Or one of their top players? How many have taken an unorthodox view on one of their top players and changed their position/role/duties in response? How many have put forth that vision and enforced it? Doesn’t have to be a big man although that would be preferable.
The only name that pops into my head is Allen Iverson and that was the coach more so than the GM.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Dave,
When Bosh has played his best, in the NBA, it has been as a Center … i.e. when he’s the biggest Raptor on the floor and has the responsibilities of a Center, on Offense, Defense & in terms of Rebounding.
There is no need to shift Chris to a different position than the one he’s played primarily for this team, when he’s been at his best.
What people need to do is STOP trying to move him to the POWER Forward position.
===================================
It’s immaterial how many other GM’s have chosen to play with the style I’m advocating for the Raptors with Chris … cause those other teams haven’t had a player with the skill set Chris Bosh has.
If those other GM’s had a player with Chris Bosh’s skill set, and they really knew what they were doing as top flight talent evaluators, then they WOULD have used that player as an under-sized CENTER, not as a POWER Forward.
===================================
The best team which the Phoenix Suns have had recently had an under-sized CENTER by the name of Amare Stoudemire, manning the middle for them, when they lost in the Western Conference Playoffs with an injured Joe Johnson.
Using an under-sized CENTER is nothing new in the NBA and goes back to the days of The Great Bill Russell, i.e. see the banners hanging in the rafters in Boston.
Enjoy your weekend, one and all.
October 17th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
I’m not debating the virtue of Bosh at center. There’s a lot of virtue to the idea.
I’m wondering whether Colangelo deserves blame for Bosh not being there (or planning his team around Bosh at center), as you said a few comments ago when Colangelo misjudged Bosh … or is blaming him unduly harsh? Or have I misunderstood what you meant when you said he misjudged Bosh?
I don’t think he does, I think that’s unfair.
Phoenix started Amare at center when Colangelo was there … but again it was not his first choice, it was that Phoenix had no better options.
October 18th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Dave,
Starting Amare at Center was [and is] the correct way to go with a player of his unique talents. It SHOULD have been the way the Suns used him in concert with a PG like Nash.
It SHOULD have been their 1st choice, not their 2nd, with unique players like Amare & Nash, and a coach like D’Antoni. There is NO better option … which also does not detract from what they each bring to the table every night, in a 4 out/1 in system with Amare as the C and Nash as the offensive conductor.
=====================
A GM is responsible for assessing correctly the best way to use the individual players on his own roster and for selecting and then keeping a head coach who is a best fit with them, capable of developing their unique gifts, as individuals on a team.
When a team is succeeding and its players are being used to their maximum capacity that’s terrific.
When a team is under-achieving and one or more of its players are not being used to their maximum capacity that’s the player’s responsibility to correct, then the coach’s responsibility, and then the buck stops with the GM.
Everyone has to be on the same page … and, if they’re not, it’s the GM’s responsibility to solve that problem.
=====================
In order to maximize what Chris Bosh brings to the table, in the NBA, as a player and a person, he NEEDS to be used as a CENTER [offensively, defensively & rebounding-wise], not as a Power Forward [where he loses the bulk of his individual overall match-up advantages vs the vast majority of other players in the League who also play this position].
* Despite the fact CB4 can score the ball … he is not A SCORER.
* Despite the fact CB4 hasn’t yet had dominant rebounding or shot-blocking averages, the fact is … he IS a dominant rebounder and a very good shot-blocker especially when coming from off the ball [similar to Mr. Russell].
* Despite his naturally quiet demeanor … he IS a LEADER with outstanding character [which needs to be nurtured and developed properly not left alone to go totally off course ... i.e. see his 'personal' video promotions stuff as a prime example of this sort of derailment].
Ultimately … it is the GM’s job to see these correctly and ensure that his players are being developed to their maximum capacity.
[e.g. If Jerry Krause had not been the GM in Chicago ... there would have been no Phil Jackson there, as the head coach, and therefore the player who eventually became Michael Jordan would never have happened in the first place. Ditto with The Great Bill Russell and his GM/Coach, Arnold 'Red' Auerbach; and, Larry Bird with Bill Fitch & Red Auerbach; and, Magic Johnson with Pat Riley & Jerry West; and, Isiah Thomas with Chuck Daly & Jack McCloskey; and, Tim Dincan with Gregg Popovich/RC Buford; and, etc., etc., etc., ...]
======================
The fact that very few GM’s in the history of the game might possess the foresight it takes to see how certain players need to be used in order to maximize their team’s chances for victory is irrelevant in consideration of whether or not any one specific GM deserves to be scrutinized closely on account of how he has chosen to use the players in his own organization.
By its very nature, it’s a discussion without end, without ‘provable’ conclusions … and based primarily upon your unique Basketball Philosophy and how you choose to view the game.
October 18th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Khandor,
You don’t think Amare has played better basketball since moving back to power forward?
You’ve written that the Suns are a better team since the trade of Marion for Shaq.
—————————–
I still don’t understand why you feel your demands on Colangelo are reasonable. You haven’t shown a significant number of past examples or of other top GMs in the league today doing something comparable.
You think Colangelo is wrong? Fine
You think Colangelo deserves blame and this one of the reasons he’s not a top GM? I need evidence of other top GMs who would do what you’re saying as their first choice … and I don’t see it.
October 18th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Dave,
IMO … if Red Auerbach had been Chris Bosh’s GM/Coach he would have recognized that Center is CB4’s best position in the NBA.
==========================================
The fact is I cannot give you large numbers of examples of other GM’s who would have had the ability to see THIS about Chris Bosh because there have been very few top notch GM’s in the history of this League.
IMO … contemporary GM’s like Jerry West, Jerry Krause, Gregg Popovich/RC Buford, Joe Dumars, and Danny Ainge, for example, might have the ability it takes to see the game in a way which would allow Chris Bosh to flourish as a Center for their teams.
==========================================
Yes, I have said that the new version of the Suns … operating under Steve Kerr … has a better chance of winning the NBA Championship than the old Suns did operating under Bryan Colangelo.
The reason for this, however, is not because of the shift of Amare Stoudemire from the PF to the C spot.
IMO, if the old Suns would have kept Amare at Center AND improved their commitment to Rebounding at the other 3 positions on the floor … with Steve Nash as their PG … by acquiring a more tenacious rebounders at the #2, #3, & #4 positions to go along with Joe Johnson … that team would have had an even better chance to win the Championship than the current version of the Suns which has a broken down Shaq at the Center position and a good but not great Amare at the POWER Forward spot.
[e.g. When your team sets a middle pick with Amare as the Center, in a 4 out/1 in alignment, there is no other BIG (like Shaq) clogging up the lane and Amare becomes a DEVASTING Finisher at the rim with a delivery-man like Nash; on the other hand, when your team has Amare as its POWER Forward with an immoblie player like Shaq is today at the Center spot ... you are playing from a 3 out/2 in alignment ... and you ELIMINATE a huge part of Amare's inidivual game ... i.e. his aerial pyrotechnics finishing at the rim ... and, instead, turn him into a mid-range jump shooter.]
Amare at #5 is far too quick and athletic for the other Centers in the NBA … with the exception of a player like Kevin Garnett.
[Btw ... if you do not think that KG actually played Center for the Boston Celtics last season, with Kendrick Perkins at the POWER FORWARD position, then, IMO, your perception is mistaken. Like The Great Bill Russell before him, KG was definitely at the Center of the Celtics 'Ubuntu' machine.
]
October 18th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Khandor,
It doesn’t have to be one of the top GMs of all time. You’re saying Colangelo is an average GM in today’s game and this is one of the reasons why he’s average. So if he’s average there’s a bunch of other guys better than him and there’s surely been a lot of opportunities over the past 25 years where a GM had the ability to make a choice that is comparable to what you want, and that a top GM would make the correct call (as you see it) …. so where are those decisions?
Is Chris Bosh really that rare of a player?
There hasn’t been anyone like him, who for the reasons you describe should switch to center, in recent memory?
————————
Khandor, your answers are very interesting to me, if you don’t mind, I’d like to switch over to your theory on Bosh, Amare, KG and the center position. I’d like to keep the Colangelo part separate from this because I think they’re two different questions.
————————-
If Kevin Garnett played center last season for Boston, as you say, then what does it matter where Chris Bosh is on the court?
Bosh is the in the exact same position on the court as KG and KG just led a team to a title, has been an MVP and one of the best players in the game for a decade. He was DpoY and marshaled one of the best defensive teams of recent times.
KG did all of this while being matched up night in night out against power forwards, and playing alongside a 6-10 280lb beast who most categorize as a center. Bosh is being, and has been since Colangelo arrived, used in the same manner ….. so how is he being limited? Why can’t he achieve what you think he can achieve from the position he’s in? KG just did it. Why can’t Bosh? What’s different in the two scenarios? What’s the variable?
————————–
Also, if Perkins was the power forward why not start and play Leon Powe major minutes? Powe is a very good four man. Powe’s individual rebounding numbers are better, his scoring his better, he’s a better finisher in the paint, his efficiency is superb, and he’s a foul drawing machine that wreaks havoc on oppositions interior D. Powe is also an above average defensive player.
———————
The switch to power forward did not effect Amare Stoudemire’s finishing, it did not limit his offensive game.
He was averaging 23ppg on 59% shooting prior to the trade. After the trade he was averaging 28ppg on 59% shooting, he also got to the line more often. He also doubled his assists.
So why is center Amare’s best position?
October 18th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
When I speak of BC as our saviour I don’t mean it as the best GM in the NBA… I mean a solid GM who has turned a 27 win team a team that was lossing creditablilty fast into a respected organization that is clearly heading in the right direction.
I am always quite surprised by the heat BC takes on here… By no means is BC perfect he has made mistakes and will contine to do so… He has also made some good moves and will continue to make more of those as well.
Sure BC has not won a title here or even a playoff round YET however if we consider where we were and where we are now we really behind schedule?
NO
In 2 years BC has established a very nice core mostly of good young players or players in there prime, sent us to the playoffs in back to back seasons, won our first ever division, won executive of the year, set a franchise record for regular season wins… Heck he even made Sam Mitchell coach of the year (Wow that aint easy) and most importantly made us a place where free agents believe in the organization an would welcome playing here. These are the facts and undisputable.
He took over from a GM who was making us look like the 90’s version of the Clippers East.
I think part of the reason he takes heat is because the East was so bad 2 years ago and we exceeded expectations by such a huge margin everyone got too excited to early. To win a title it does not happen over night you have to go from a bad team to a good team to a great team (most of the time Boston was the exception last year)
Teams usually have to crawl first then walk then run. I think we are jogging right now and have a real chance to do what New Orleans did last year and go from an good team to a real good team.
If we judge BC on his entire body of work we as fans can not be disapointed. Again please remember where we were and where we are now.
Where were going is debateable however based on Bowmans line of regular season wins it has us at 47.5 wins (not a true indication but at least and educated prediction)
I just don’t get why BC gets thrown under the bus on here…
It’s undeniable that he has restored order, sanity and respectability that was so needed and turn a laughing stock franchise that was falling faster then Khandor to his knees when he sees Babcock… (I think there bum buddies)
Even the better GM’s make mistakes Dumars drafted Darko over Wade, Bosh and Carmelo.
He is not perfect… but what should have been the expectations for this franchise the past 2 years? Have they not been met or exceeded.
I am not saying were there yet… But crawl walk run.
I see us jogging fast right now.
I see a good team. I see a team that could be a top team in the East and yet I here such junk on here like Bosh should play center and we did not get anything for Mike James (with the money we saved we signed other players that led to a division title and a franchise record in wins)
Let’s get on aboard and stop ripping the best GM this franchise has ever seen.
It’s undeniable the train is back on the tracks and headed in the right direction and it’s undeniable it was headed for train wreck befor he got here.
Give the man some credit. Give this team some credit and getcha popcorn ready.
Oneal and Bosh looked pretty solid tonight.
Go Raps!!!
October 19th, 2008 at 12:59 am
Dave,
In the order you presented your ideas …
———————
‘Average’ need not mean what you think it means.
e.g. If there are one or two or three 1st tier GM’s in the NBA today and 25 2nd tier GM’s and four, three or two 3rd tier GM’s then would not each of the 25 members of that middle group all be considered ‘average’?
In my understanding they would.
———————
IMO … yes, indeed, Chris Bosh is a relatively unique player in the annals of the NBA.
———————
Chris Bosh is not in the exact same position on the court as Kevin Garnett is, nor is he the same type of player that Kevin Garnett is, at whatever position KG happens to be playing.
KG’s extraordinary versatility is, perhaps, unmatched in the history of the game and his individual game [on offense, defense & rebounding-wise] is nothing like Chris Bosh’s.
———————
re: Perkins vs Powe
In time, Leon Powe may also prove to be a terrific partner with Garnett.
When you really think about some of the classic Power Forwards in the history of the game, Kendrick Perkins fits right in … a real tough Banger with limited offensive skill who exemplifies grit and rebounding and physical man-to-man defensive play in the lane. IMO, Perk would be at his best if you matched up against rugged customers like Paul Silas, Maurice Lucas, and Jerry Lucas; while he’d have his hands full with more agile types like Kevin McHale, Karl Malone, Horace Grant and Spider Sally; and would simply be out-classed by the likes of The Worm and James Worthy.
Two things which Perk has right now that Powe does not bring … are:
1. The physical size it takes to check a true POWER player, in contrast with KG; and,
2. A tangible mean streak with a significant intimidation factor.
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re: Amare’s game as a Center/PF
Please remember what I’ve said before re: ‘Statistical Averages’ … i.e. they have little value for me.
Elite level basketball is a game of individual and team match-ups [i.e. advantages & disadvantages either way]. What a player’s overall ‘averages’ are … is irrelevant to how he matches up against this specific player, on this specific team, within theis specific system, and using this specific gameplan/strategy/tactic/etc.
‘Average stats’ have nothing to do with winning and losing games in the NBA playoffs … individual and team match-ups do.
If you listened closely to Jeff Van Gundy last season early in the year … there was a game broadcast where he explained very well what most elite level NBA coaches know already … i.e. that Amare Stoudemire is simply an hellacious check at the 5-spot, in this League, and merely a tough check at the #4. Meaning that: (i) When he was the biggest guy on the floor for the old Suns team an opponent simply had no check to match him up against effectively [if your Biggest player defended Amare he would simply be outquicked coming of the pick with Nash, and if you went with one of your other smaller players on the floor Amare would simply play above the rim on that guy while whichever Sun was now being checked by your Biggest player would get eaten alive by whichever Suns' player he was now assigned to cover; (ii) When he was the 2nd biggest guy on the floor for the old Suns team, an opponent could then play a conventional Center against the Suns' Biggest player, and a more conventional Power Forward vs Amare.
When Amare is the only Big on the floor for his team, in a 4 out/1 in alignment ... there is no 2nd big [and his accompanying defender] anywhere around basket to clog up the lane and disrupt interior passes in #1-#5 Pick & Roll/Slip situations.
October 19th, 2008 at 1:11 am
RBS,
IMO you are exactly the type of fan that MLSE wants to have as a supporter of their team.
If you’re proud of that fact, then … I suggest you have yourself a delightful Sunday.
October 19th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Holy shit! Jermaine O’neal decided to play!
October 19th, 2008 at 3:13 am
Khandor,
I still haven’t heard any evidence why it’s reasonable to expect this of Colangelo, and that this reason is part of why he’s an average GM.
Anything else to add on Colangelo + the Bosh/center element? Or are we at a dead end here?
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Who are the 1-3 top GMs?
25 average GMs is a pretty big ball park. Those 2/3 must be spectacular in comparison to deserve that level of separation from the pack.
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You didn’t answer the question about why Chris Bosh can’t do what your describing … but KG can in comparable situations. What’s the difference there? What is the variable(s) that I’m missing?
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I’m just thinking out loud here ….. would you classify someone like Andrei Kirilenko as a center? or a Josh Smith?
The Kirilenko at small forward thing muddies the picture. But say he’s playing at power forward like he used to alongside another big (say Okur or Boozer) like he used and still occasionally does.
October 19th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Dave,
It is ever REASONABLE to expect someone specific to be able to fit into the category of being SPECIAL?
I think not.
That’s precisely what being SPECIAL really means, if you get my drift.
On the contrary … it is perfectly ‘reasonable’ to expect that someone fits into the ‘average’ category.
At no time have I ever, anywhere, suggested that Bryan Colangelo is a poor GM, in the NBA … cause, IMO, he is not. He is an ‘average’ GM, in the NBA. He is not a saviour of anything or anyone, as a GM in this League, and to think he is, is a mistake in judgment, IMO.
I watched the Raptors’ 2008 NBA Draft Night war-room activity for the first time last evening and what I saw there only further cemented my impression of this organization’s basketball acumen.
It is of the ‘average’ variety, IMO, and in no way special.
By contrast, when I watched the Boston Celtics’ Real Training Camp episode on tv earlier this week it was immediately apparent that what goes on in that gym is not ‘common’ to the way the majority of the other NBA teams are conducting their training camp sessions right now, even they everyone is playing in the exact same League. If you know what to look for, it is easy to see some of the differences between what the C’s are doing, how the C’s are doing it, and what effect it is having on the eventual effectiveness of their team, in comparison with the ‘average’ teams in the NBA.
It’s like night and day.
Special folk tend to be like THAT.
They do certain things in a ’slightly’ different way than almost everybody else.
=========================================
Important to clear up any misperception that might exist in the mind of some.
At no time have I ever said that Chris Bosh hasn’t played the Center position for the Raptors, to this point in his NBA career; or, that he can’t play this spot, for this team, for some reason.
IMO, CB4 has indeed played the Center position for this team; especially, at the times when he has been at his best, to this point in his career.
IMO, it is when CB4 is shifted OUT of the Center position that he begins to struggle, Offensively, Defensively and Rebounding-wise … not on the first possession necessarily but gradually over time.
Unlike Kevin Garnett, for example … who is incredibly versatile and can play numerous positions at a high level … Chris Bosh does not find his comfort level on an elite calibre basketball team until he has the opportunity to take advantage of the mismatches he presents at the #5 position.
He is a solid Power Forward but in no way SPECTACULAR.
As a Center, however, he CAN BE a dominant player, in this League for years to come … if he is used properly, i.e. Offensively, Defensively & Rebounding-wise, in conjunction with his teammates.
Based on what I’ve seen thus far from Chris … he has the makings of a SPECIAL player in this League.
Will he ever reach that level?
Time will tell … and be effected by HOW he is developed & used, by his GM and his coach, or not … just like any other player [great or otherwise] in the NBA.
=====================
re: AK47 or Josh Smith
No, I would not characterize either of these two players as a Center.
A player who I would label as an authentic Center is Tim Duncan … despite the fact that other people [and Tim himself, it seems, periodically] are forever trying to SHIFT him into the POWER Forward category.
IMO, AK47 is a terrific basketball player who is a best fit at the #3 position in the NBA, not the #4 or the #5; while Josh Smith is an under-sized #4, in the mold of someone like James Worthy.
October 19th, 2008 at 9:38 am
Dave,
Sorry for the typos in that response.
The first sentence should read as,
“Is it ever …”,
and I forgot to include a suitable player comparison for Kirilenko, in what I wrote. Please feel free to insert the words ‘like Scottie Pippen’, after ‘NBA’, in that last sentence.
October 19th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Khandor.
Personally I hate MLSE but I am a fan of BC and I suported the team when they were winning 20 games why would I not support the team win there winning 40+ games as well. I am a basketball fan… I am a Raptor fan…
I have seen this team struggle for its entire history with the excepiton of a few years with Glen Grunwald and I am very happy this team is back on track and yet I crave a long playoff run and a title just as much as any other sports fan, yet I have the brain power to realize it is a processand it does not happen in 2 years. It is undeniable how good BC has done here in a such a short time. From a joke to a respected franchise with a good future… He is not done yet but so far so good…
Maybe you too old to understand… Or maybe your too negative to give credit.. Maybe your too unrealistic to be patient…Or maybe your just don’t and won’t get it and will continue to be blinded by your love for Babcock… Or maybe your just an idiot who thinks he knows baketball but is just stuborn in “”your ways”" and you age is cathcing up to you and your lossing it faster then a Babcok Arujo sighting in Minny. It really does not matter to me. However Your wrong about BC.
October 19th, 2008 at 10:42 am
RBS,
———————
re: Or maybe your just don’t and won’t get it and will continue to be blinded by your love for Babcock…
———————
This is precisely the type of mis-perception which, unfortunately, renders the rest of what you might have to say concerning my comments meaningless.
As I said before, sir, have yourself a terrific Sunday.
PS. Clips played last night’s game without Baron, T-Thomas and Camby; Raps without Bargnani. Hmmmm … Regular season starts on Tue Oct 28. It’s going to be an interesting year for Raptors fans of all shapes and sizes. Living life with ‘Eyes Wide Shut‘ is not what I would ever recommend to someone else.
October 19th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Wrong again.
Eyes are wide open just because I am not negative, and looking at the glass half full does not make me close eyed.
As always you don’t address the main issue and that is BC and his report card to date is good here….
I will enjoy my Sunday and for all you football fans who like to wager take SD in Buffalo this week.
October 19th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I didn’t see the Clippers game, does anyone know who was defending Jermaine O Neal? Was it Kaman or Paul Davis?
I’m guessing Kaman was on Bosh. Davis wouldn’t have the athleticism to check Bosh … Dunleavy normally puts Kaman on top tier opposing power forwards.
————————————————-
I was just thinking about Mike James and the non-trade at the trading deadline … and I was thinking that Colangelo didn’t join the club until late February. I looked it up, it was February 28th when he signed with Toronto (left Phoenix the day before), which was after the trading deadline - the deadline was the 23rd in 2006.
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Khandor,
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for someone to be very good at what they do.
I think it’s unreasonable to expect someone to do something that nobody else would do, including the best of the best currently in the league. There’s simply no evidence over the past 25 years that any of the top GMs would do something similar in a comparable situation.
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I completely agree on Tim Duncan. San Antonio have played/started two centers since he entered the league. No power forwards until they called someone off the bench. For awhile they even started three centers … that was something to watch. Tim Duncan defending guys like Grant Hill, and even guards like Mark Jackson.
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Kirilenko+Smith = Okay, I was just wondering something.
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I still haven’t understood why Chris Bosh has to play center to exploit his defensive/rebounding abilities …… yet Garnett who plays the same position and defends the same opposing player each night can.
If there isn’t a difference defensively, is the only difference offensively to Bosh (attacking a PF or C)? If it’s offensively that comes down to how he scores the ball because he more advantages at the five, and the main difference then is making Bosh a better scorer rather than defender/rebounder?
What am I missing? Why can’t Bosh exploit his defensive/rebounding abilities when put in a comparable situation to Kevin Garnett?
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You didn’t answer who the top 1-3 GMs are in the league? The one’s who are special and have such a large separation from the rest of the pack?
October 20th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Dave,
Neither do I think it’s unreasonable for someone to be very good at what they do in life.
Being very good is not the same as being SPECIAL.
At least, not in my book.
———————————–
Yes, it is unreasonable to expect someone to do something that very few other people have ever been able to do in this world.
Being reasonable has very little to do with producing a World Champion.
When you own & operate a pro sports franchise, in the NBA, IMO, the goal is to win the League Championship … again, and again.
———————
Kevin Garnett has a quickness advantage over the majority of other players at different spots in the NBA … Chris Bosh does not.
Garnett and Bosh are two very different players.
Garnett is versatile in a way that Bosh can never ever dream of becoming.
Bosh’s best position is Center, in the NBA.
Garnett is equally adept at playing more than one position … depending on who his opponent is, in the NBA.
IMO, Garnett was the Center for last year’s Boston Celtics.
You can never put Bosh in a similar position to Garnett because he is not Garnett and doesn’t possess anything close to KG’s highly specialized skill set and character.
IMO … both have the ability to be great NBA players … but they are very different from one another.
October 20th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
I thought I would chime in on Owners wanting to win a title, it’s a very painful subject for me actually and here is why:
It should be every owners goal to win a title, however some teams primary goal is making money first and winning second.
For example if MLSE’s goal was to win a title this year they would be willing to spend more money and enter the dreaded luxury tax.
Let’s think what could have happened if BC had only the NBA payroll rules to follow instead of the budget he has to follow:
This is just an example not these exact names but this idea in general:
BC in theory could have resigned Delfino at say 3-7 million, resigned Primo to a 1 year contract (only in order to trade him as an expiring contract during the season)
Used his MLE (mid level exception on player X maybe Posey, Childress, Magette, anyone worthy of the 6-7 million at the wing postion who could improve it. If not use on the best available player as either a trade chip or making another player disaposable based on this signing.
Use the veterans minnium or even the MLE if he is the best available player to get a veteran back up PG just in case Roko is not ready.
Bought a second draft pick in the draft and made sure they got CDR or anyother good prospect who fell through the cracks
Again all in thoery and not these particular names but players that would A. make us better and B. Increase our team salary and have lots of tradeable players and options/flexability.
Sure this would also eliminate cap space but not if you signed these players to short term deals 1 or 2 years. Sure this would reduce the chance of landing these players but maybe there would have been a match somewhere.
So using the above thinking our roster could have been something like this
PG Calderon/Roko/(damon or Jwilliams or player X take your pick I am sure I am forgetting a few other possibilities)
SG Parker/Kapono/not hassan Adams/Delfino
SF Player Y (Childress/Posey/Magette/anyone better then what we have/Graham/Moon/CDR
PF Bosh/Hump/Jawai
C Oneal/Andrea/Primo
Now think of the potential trades possibilites this would allow us to make during the season. We would have a much better chance of winning a title clearly as we are not deleting any players we would just be adding.
So here we spent around 10-11 million dollars over the tax and made us a team that would have a better shot to win a title this year if MLSE number 1 goal was to win a title.
BC, Smicth and all the players and the enitire organization wants to win a title as there goal don’t get me wrong, however MLSE does not want to spend over the tax which they are entirely entitled to do and is a maybe a good business decision (I would gamble and go for it for higher revenue potential if the team has great sucsess however they choose to play it safe) BUT as a fan we want a Mark Cuban type owner that wants a tilte more then anything however unfortunately that does not exist here.
Another reason to grade BC a little higher as he does not have a budget as high as the Lakers and Celtics among other teams.
Think about what adding 10-12 million dollars to our payroll over the next 10 years each season would do? What possible players could we add.
Toronto will spend around 70 million this year. The best two teams Boston and LA spend 81 and 83 this year. Granted most teams don’t go over (Detriot is an example that you don’t HAVE to go over to win) However if we are talking about maxiumizing your teams chance to win then clearly Boston and LA ownership is fully commited and Toronto’s is not.
AGAIN if MLSE wanted to win a tilte sooooo bad they would alow BC to spend what ever he seas fit under NBA rules.
But we can’t and that ofcourse hurts our chances and makes me a little sad to be honest.
To bad Mr Balsaly (owner of RIM) (and yes I am sure I spelled his name wrong) did not like Basketball like he likes hockey. He would be a great owner.
GO RAPS and do me a favor if you see a retired teacher… slap them around a bit and tell them not to be so tight with there cash….
October 20th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
And yes I know MLSE is a coporation and they have the same goal as every other corporation to make money but it does not mean I or Raps fan have to like it… God I hate them “”ownership, MLSE what ever you want to call them “”… I am still so bitter about all Raps preseaon games last year and this year not being on Raps TV. Most were on this year and most were not on last year, however clearly they should all be.
However I won’t elaborate because I have been there and done that and really don’t want to anger myslef that much again.
This whole TSN2 thing better work because if my Rogers ultimate sports package does not show me 82 Raps games I will snap and Jail or a mental institution is something I would like to avoid this season.
GO RAPS
October 20th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
RBS,
Don’t be so hard on retired Ontario teachers … as they have nothing to do with the way in which their pension plan is administered, unlike Misters Pedie and Tanenbaum.
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I agree with most of what you’ve said there.
———————
However … I do not absolve Mr. Colangelo of responsibility in this area of the Basketball Operations side of things for MLSE.
1. He is not just the GM of this team but also its President, which means that unlike, say, JP Riccardi [GM with the Blue Jays, who has to go through a separate President to obtain his annual operating budget], Bryan Colangelo does not have his hands tied in the same way as he would if wasn’t also the person in charge of the financial side of the Raptors management operation.
2. He knew full well what the operating guidelines were with this team, and MLSE, when he accepted his position with the Raptors in the first place.
If he disagreed with the philosophy of MLSE, as outlined by you above, in terms of their lack of commitment toward winning a league Championship then he SHOULD NOT have accepted their offer to join this organization.
Conversely … once he accepts their offer, it means that he is in tacit AGREEMENT with the way that this organization chooses to approach the winning of a championship in the NBA and, therefore, is culpable for the current situation this franchise finds itself in … similar to Mr. Peddie, Mr. Tanenbaum and the OTPP … re: its Salary Cap/Luxury Tax Threshold position; its list of marketable assets; and the decision to ‘concentrate’ the skill & talent level of the roster into fewer numbers of players overall with the addition of Jermaine O’Neal and the financial consequences/constraints associated with that move, at this time.
October 21st, 2008 at 12:15 am
I’ve tried and struggled to understand your thinking on these ideas Khandor, but alas, I h