So the schedule is out, and at first glance it looks like we will know what this team is made of Come November 1st in Milwaukee. IMHO, the Raptors should go 9-5, which will go a long way to setting a tone for the rest of the season, and maybe get them 50 wins. As we all know, the last couple seasons, the Raptors haven’t been so quick out of the gate, and that has cost them.
Interesting to see that the Raptors have Atlanta, Charlotte and Miami twice each (home and home) in the first month. I have all 6 of those games as wins. In fact, I will go so for as to say that IF this is a 50 win team, they HAVE to win those games. Again, IMHO, going 5-1 over those 6 games is unacceptable, and will only fuel the fire that BryCo didn’t make the right decisions again this offseason.
December gets significantly tougher, and if the over/under is December, my Money is on December 20th as the date. 10 road games, and all on the left-coast (except Jersey), and all against Western Conference playoff teams (except the Clippers, who will be fighting for the 8th spot this season).
This season, I will be doing comprehensive monthly analysis (before the month), but I have gone through and picked the wins and losses, and by my count the Raptors are a 46 (46-36) win team based on my first impressions. I don’t know how off I am with my picks, but I stand by them…so much for 50 wins…what was Plan B again?
October 1-1
Wed 29 @ Philadelphia W
Fri 31 vs Golden State L
November 9-5
Sat 01 @ Milwaukee W
Wed 05 vs Detroit L
Fri 07 @ Atlanta W
Sun 09 @ Charlotte W
Mon 10 @ Boston L
Wed 12 vs Philadelphia W
Sun 16 vs Miami W
Tue 18 @ Orlando L
Wed 19 @ Miami W
Fri 21 vs New Jersey W
Sun 23 vs Boston L
Wed 26 vs Charlotte W
Fri 28 vs Atlanta W
Sun 30 @ LA Lakers L
December 6-10
Tue 02 @ Denver L
Fri 05 @ Utah L
Sun 07 vs Portland W
Tue 09 @ Cleveland L
Wed 10 vs Indiana W
Fri 12 @ New Jersey W
Sun 14 vs New Orleans L
Mon 15 vs New Jersey W
Wed 17 vs Dallas L
Fri 19 @ Seattle W
Sat 20 @ San Antonio L
Mon 22 @ LA Clippers W
Fri 26 @ Sacramento L
Sat 27 @ Portland L
Mon 29 @ Golden State L
Wed 31 @ vs Denver L
January 10-6
Fri 02 vs Houston L
Sun 04 vs Orlando W
Mon 05 @ Milwaukee W
Wed 07 @ Washington L
Fri 09 vs Memphis W
Sun 11 vs Boston W
Mon 12 @ Boston L
Wed 14 vs Chicago W
Fri 16 @ Indiana L
Sun 18 vs Phoenix W
Mon 19 @ Atlanta W
Wed 21 @ Detroit L
Fri 23 @ Chicago W
Sun 25 vs Sacramento W
Wed 28 @ New Jersey L
Fri 30 vs Milwaukee W
February 7-5
Sun 01 vs Orlando W
Tue 03 @ Cleveland L
Wed 04 vs LA Lakers L
Fri 06 @ New Orleans L
Sat 07 @ Memphis W
Tue 10 @ Minnesota W
Wed 11 vs San Antonio L
Wed 18 vs Cleveland W
Fri 20 @ New York W
Sun 22 vs New York W
Tue 24 vs Minnesota W
Fri 27 @ Phoenix L
March 7-6
Sun 01 @ Dallas L
Tue 03 @ Houston L
Fri 06 vs Miami W
Sun 08 vs Utah L
Wed 11 @ Philadelphia L
Fri 13 vs Detroit L
Sun 15 vs Indiana W
Mon 16 @ Charlotte W
Fri 20 vs Charlotte W
Sun 22 vs LA Clippers L
Wed 25 vs Milwaukee W
Fri 27 vs Oklahoma City W
Sun 29 vs Chicago W
April 6-3
Wed 01 @ Orlando L
Sat 04 @ New York W
Sun 05 vs New York W
Tue 07 vs Atlanta W
Wed 08 @ Indiana W
Fri 10 vs Washington W
Sun 12 vs Philadelphia L
Mon 13 @ Washington L
Wed 15 @ Chicago W
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August 6th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Why don’t you set up something so that we can all make our predictions for every game.
August 6th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Correction # 1 you have the Raps at 45-35
Missing the first two games in October.
Correction # 2 if the Raps don’t go 6-0 in six meeting against Atlanta, Charlotte and Miami twice each (home and home) This does not mean that BryCo did not make the correct offseason moves this is just a ridiculous statement and makes you look stupid!!! What if they go 4-2 and win 50 games then what?
The schedule can also be broken up into 3 parts
Games within the Division 16 (Raps could go 10-6 or 11-5)
8-0 or 7-1 VS NY or NJ is a possibility and 4-4 VS Phi and Bos is also a decent goal
Games with the East excluding the division 36 We play all 10 of these teams 4 times except Det, Cle, Wash, Mia which we only see three times which I believe a great break and will result in an extra win or 2
Raps could go around 25-11 here. Could be asking a little much but clearly this is were the Raps need to get half of there wins or close to it if they are going to be a 50 win team.
VS the West 30 games
15 and 15 would be good. Still some bottom feeders in the West we should grab 2 wins from as I am sure we could get swept by the Lakers and another team or two
50 wins will be tough but it is acheivable if we stay somewhat healthy.
August 6th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Road Wins vs High Calibre Opponents (e.g. playoff teams from the previous year) are an indication of a team’s overall quality of play.
If this version of the Raptors 2008-2009 Schedule is correct … their projected performance in these games would appear to identify this team as significantly less-than-stellar … i.e. you have winning only two (2) (both @ Atlanta) and LOSING 18.
Even if the Raptors make the post-season for a 3rd consecutive year, a 2-18 W-L record vs 2007-2008 Playoff teams would indicate that the Raptors really haven’t made that much progress during this period of time.
khandors last blog post..Close but no cigar
August 6th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
rbs: thanks man, i totally missed that. since when do you play gaves in october…why was november 4 in my head?…
anyways, to speak to your points:
i was suggesting that BryCo’s move would not be good ones if they don’t go 6-0 against those teams because if we are to believe that the moves he made were the best possible ones, and make this team a better one, then these should be coming out of the corner swinging. last season, the raptors did a terrible job of beating the weaker teams, and if they can’t beat on them to start the season, 50 wins will be a challenge.
i have to agree with your breakdown of the schedule (i was at work, and didn’t have the luxury of breaking it down in great detail).
8-0/7-1 against NY/NJ is achievable, and a split with phi/bos would be decent, but i don’t see us beating philly 3 times, that’s just me.
only seeing Cavs and Wiz 3 times is a boon, but i would have liked to see bulls and mia 4…again, i agree.
15-15 against the west might be a bit of a stretch. we would have to clean up against the bottom feeders (read not lose against the likes of memphis and sota) and then maybe.
you hit the nail on the head:
“50 wins will be tough but it is acheivable if we stay somewhat healthy.”
khandor: i’d take road wins anyway i can get them. last season, they were 16-25 on the road. winning against playoff teams on the road will be very difficult, with the exception of the hawks, they are all either much better then the raps, or improved in the offseason (keeping pace or exceeding the raptors progress - if you can call it that).
August 7th, 2008 at 3:29 am
half the loses u put shouldnt be there
sacremento with no ron artest? or gs with no baron? there is no doubt in my mind that the raps will win 50 plus games and make it to second round at least.
and btw i dont wanna hear how bc failed this off season he got JO, and ukic thats better than nothing. and if u guys disagree then by all means explain something he could have done after the JO trade
August 7th, 2008 at 9:37 am
Hate it when you take my pick. Hoping for 45 and will take 43. It all depends on how healthy the team looks. Would be bummed out if Bosh gets roughed up in China and has a sub par year.
Of course the same could be said for most of the East.
Just imagine if Cleveland lost James for a month.
August 7th, 2008 at 12:40 pm
raptors champ: bc could have done a lot, the raptors still have a big hole at the 2/3. a guy like pietrus, a guy like bonzi wells, a guy like ron artest all could have filled that hole. they are also very weak at pg, ukic and solomon are not guaranteed to be any good. just a couple thoughts there rc.
john: that’s why i never really harp on the injury bug, every team in the league has that issue.
August 7th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
rbs: straight from raptorshq.com:
http://www.hooplife.ca/raptorshq/viewHQArticle.php?id=478
i put a deeper line in the sand, but scroll down to the bottom of the page where they talk about those 6 games against atlanta, charlotte and milwaukee.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
to who ever writes this blog … U FAILED !! ur W-L prediction’s horrible
August 7th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
nabz: just saying i failed isn’t very useful. how about you venture a guess and enlighten me
i was fairly accurate with last years prediction:
http://www.raptorstalk.com/2007/10/25/putting-the-women-and-children-to-bed/
August 7th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Raps Fan,
A better time to publish a realistically accurate ‘W-L prediction number’, on a game-by-game basis for the regular season is once the final rosters have been set toward the end of training camp.
e.g. the Hawks are a very different team if they do not have Josh Smith on-board; how healthy is Arenas actually going to be; how is Chicago going to break their logjam at the Guard/Wing position; etc.
Hit me up at that time and I’ll share my personal W-L prediction number for the Raptors with you.
khandors last blog post..Ranking Jose Calderon as a Point Guard
August 7th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
That 16 game run at the end of the season is fairly friendly. Only 2 games against quality playoff opponents in Orlando and Phily. 10 home games and only 6 road games. If the club is in a tight playoff battle that could help.
The schedule is - Indy, Charlotte, Charlotte, Clippers, Bucks, Oklahoma, Chicago, Orlando, NY, NY, Atlanta, Indiana, Washington, Phily, Washington, Chicago.
There’s also a good few games there against teams battling for a playoff spot in the East - Washington (2), Milwaukee, Indy (2), Atlanta. So if Toronto is in trouble they can make up some ground, or if the opposite is true they can hold teams off from making ground.
Only two games against the West in the Final 16 too - Clippers, OK City. Both at home so no long trips. Clippers could be fighting for their lives so that may be tough.
That’s a fairly friendly finish to the season. Could help if the Raps end up in a tight playoff race.
Daves last blog post..Bobcats Sign Shannon Brown
August 7th, 2008 at 5:38 pm
Dave,
========================================================
re: Indy, Charlotte, Charlotte, Clippers, Bucks, Oklahoma, Chicago, Orlando, NY, NY, Atlanta, Indiana, Washington, Phily, Washington, Chicago.
========================================================
From that list … expect Indiana, Charlotte, Milwaukee, Oklahoma, Chicago, Washington, and Philadelphia to be significantly improved since last season.
khandors last blog post..Ranking Jose Calderon as a Point Guard
August 7th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
khandor: i agree, i will definitely be doing another preview come training camp time, just took a first stab at it this time, and you will definitely be invited to participate.
dave: the season finishes on a relatively easy swing, much like last season. hopefully they can capitalize, i have them finishing 13-9, which isn’t that bad going into the playoffs (6-3 in april, which is pretty good if you ask me). you will also be invited to participate come training camp
August 7th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Wow! you think raptors are gonna lose there opener to golden state? LOL!
August 7th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
i know it sounds kind of stupid, but here me out on that one:
- there wont be that much of a drop of with baron leaving and ellis taking over the point
- they added maggette on the wing, still no one on the raptors to shut down on the wing
- they will try to run with the warriors, but they aren’t that kind of team (half-court … which goes into the next point)
- nelly is a better coach then smitch
August 8th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Forget the 2nd game of the season at home vs GS … which SHOULD be a given W … and, instead, focus on the 1st game, at Philadelphia.
IMO … given the improvements they’ve made since the early part of the 2007-2008 season … the 76ers should be expected to win this game.
Neither will the Bucks, in Milwaukee, for game 3 (with Richard Jeferson and a new head coach), be a guaranteed W.
Followed by:
vs Det L (?)
@ Atlanta L (?)
@ Charlotte L (?)
@ Boston L (?)
By the time the Raptors play their 2nd home game, vs Philadelphia … they could be facing the very real possibility of a 1-6 start to the regular season.
khandors last blog post..Citius, Altius, Fortius
August 8th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
i would be very surprised if the raptors lost to charlotte.
on another note, detroit picks up yet another big guy on the cheap with the signing of kwame brown. for some reason, i think playing behind wallace and mcdyess will do wonders for the guy.
August 8th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
Raps Fan:
=====================
re: i would be very surprised if the raptors lost to charlotte.
=====================
I would not be surprised at all.
The Bobcats should be improved this year under the direction of Larry Brown.
If they are healthy, and “playing the right way” for the Vagabond … with their ability to Rebound the ball … Charlotte presents an interesting bell-weather game for this version of the Raptors early in the schedule.
SHOULD they be able to beat the Bobcats?
Perhaps so.
WILL they beat the Bobcats?
Time will tell.
=====================
2008-2009
Toronto Raptors
Adams G 6-4
Bargnani C-F 7-0
Bosh F 6-10
Calderon G 6-3
Graham F 6-7
Humphries F 6-9
Jawai F 6-10
Kapono F 6-8
Moon F 6-8
O’Neal F-C 6-11
Parker G-F 6-6
Solomon G 6-1
Ukic G 6-5
Sam Mitchell
2008-2009
Charlotte Bobcats
Anderson G 6-5
Augustin G 6-0
Brown G 6-4
Carroll G 6-6
Davidson F 6-10
Dudley F 6-7
Felton G 6-1
Harrington F-C 6-9
Hollins C 7-0
May F-C 6-9
Mohammed F-C 6-10
Morrison F 6-8
Okafor F-C 6-10
Richardson G-F 6-6
Wallace F 6-7
Weaver G 6-6
Larry Brown
khandors last blog post..Citius, Altius, Fortius
August 9th, 2008 at 1:17 am
everyone is a raptor GM
August 9th, 2008 at 11:07 am
Khandor your so negative!!! Seriously do you even like the Raps. Why don’t you go find your long lost lover Rob Babbcock. 1-6 Are you kidding me?
They are way more likely to be 5-2 4-3 maybe even 6-1, I would say 3-4 is the worst case scenario. This is a good team Khandor. Wake the bleep up, best bigs in the East, a solid PG and shooters Phily would die for.
Are we perfect? No
Premiter D will be a problem again, this does not mean a 1-6 start.
Raps will win between 46-53 games this year and more importantly will make some noise in the playoffs.
Khandor life is not so bad the sky is not falling, the world is not ending, start taking some Prozack and enjoy the season.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:25 am
46-53 seems reasonably rbs (depending on injuries, coaching, how the guys gel). detroit has the best front court in the east with wallace, mcdyess, brown, johnson and maxiel. raptors are second because of depth issues.
i think khandor was suggesting 1-6 is possible, not a certainty.
August 9th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
===================================
re: i think khandor was suggesting 1-6 is possible, not a certainty.
===================================
Thanks Raps Fan.
=====================
RBS,
The 7 other playoff teams in the Eastern Conference last season were:
Boston, Detroit, Orlando, Cleveland, Washington, Philadelphia and Atlanta.
Which of those teams do you THINK have moved backward [or stayed the same this off-season]?
From the group of non-Playoff teams …
CHARLOTTE - Larry Brown (head coach), DJ Augustin, Sean May [inj.], Adam Morrison [inj.], Shannon Brown
CHICAGO - Vinny Del Negro (head coach), Derrick Rose
INDIANA - TJ Ford, Jarrett Jack, Brandon Rush, Roy Hibbert
MIAMI - Eric Spoelstra (head coach), Michael Beasley, Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Yakhouba Diawara
MILWAUKEE - Scott Skiles (head coach) Richard Jefferson, Joe Alexander
NEW JERSEY - Eduardo Najera, Bobby Simmons, Keyon Dooling, Yi Jianlian, Brook Lopez, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Ryan Anderson
NEW YORK - Mike D’Antoni (head coach), Daniello Gallinari, Chris Duhon
Which do you THINK have gotten worse [or stayed the same] this off-season?
=====================
As Raps Fan has succinctly pointed out to you … some Raptors fans are neither overtly ‘positive’ nor ‘negative’.
What they are … is realistic.
khandors last blog post..Of interest to Raptors fans
August 9th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Hey Khandor
How about us?
Is adding a top 5 center in the NBA an improvement? Are our young players of Jose, Andrea, CB4, and Hump going to improve on last season? Is Kapono going to have a better regular season?
How about yes yes and yes.
Is the rest of the East better? Yes
Are our improvements better then most teams? Yes
Are you still a negative BC hater? Yes
Do you want to Blow Babcock? Yes
I just bugs me as this is clearly a candidate for the best team in franchise history and your negativy that you claim is realistic is a joke. You blast BC for trading for a top 5 center in the NBA and clearly the best center this franchise has ever had and your try feeding us shit that we be in a better spot if we stayed the course with Babcock it makes me and all real Raps fans sick.
Sure I am a homer and might be a tad bit optimistic but you are just one messed up dude who expects BC to be perfect where as you praise one of the worst GM’s in NBA history who if he was still in charge we would be in Vegas or Oklahoma right now.
Raps fan yes I hear you 1-6 is a possibility as 0-7 2-5 3-4 4-3 5-2 6-1 7-0
his quote was 1-6 is a real possibility (go check)to that I say no it’s not 5-2 4-3 is a real possibility 1-6 is a long shot and that is a fact.
Were a solid team Khandor maybe when Babcock stops cuddling you at night time and you open your eyes you might notice.
August 10th, 2008 at 4:09 am
RBS,
I didn’t make mention of any of the young players for the other teams improving in the off-season, so there’s no need for me to mention anything about the Raptors’ young players improving, as well.
As far as I can tell, that SHOULD BE a wash, as the Raptors don’t have a monopoly on young players who improve from year-to-year.
All I did is list the ‘new’ players each of the other teams have added to their rosters. There’s no need to list the Raptors new players since, as a fan of the team, you should already be familiar with these names.
In comparison with the personnel the other teams in the Eastern Conference have added … it’s a stretch to believe this team is go to increase its Win Total from last season.
You believe Jermaine O’Neal is still a Top 5 Center in the NBA?
Since everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that’s okay, you can think that if you want.
========================================
You believe this year’s team has a chance to be the ‘best team in Raptors’ history?
Which means you think it’s going to be better than
the 1999-2000 team … which finished 45-37 and Lost in the 1st Round of the Playoffs to the Knicks, under Butch Carter, with a roster that looked like this:
Vince Carter, Doug Christie, Tracy McGrady, Antonio Davis, Charles Oakley,
Mugsy Bogues, Dee Brown, Dell Curry, John Thomas, Kevin Willis, Alvin Williams, Haywood Workman, Michael Stewart, Sean Marks and Alex Radojevic
OR
the 2000-2001 team … which finished 47-35 and Lost in the EC Semi’s to Allen Iverson’s 76ers, under Lenny Wilkins, and had a roster that included:
Vince Carter, Antonio Davis, Charles Oakley, Morris Peterson, Chris Childs, Alvin Williams, Dell Curry, Keon Clark, Jerome Williams, Eric Montross, Tracy Murray, M. N’diaye, Michael Stewart
Likewise … since everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that’s okay, you can think that if you want.
========================================
IMO, these 6 games …
@ Phi, @ Mil, vs Det, @ Atl, Cha, @ Bos
are going to be a difficult early test for the Raptors to start the 2008-2009 season.
khandors last blog post..Ox and Lamb together … well, sort of
August 10th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Khandor
First point- I said this team is clearly a canditate to become the best Raps team of all time. I did not say they were. 47 wins and 1 round of the playoffs are the measuring sticks. Time will tell, if you don’t think this team has a good chance to duplicate or better this then your crazy.
Second point Jermaino Oneal being a top 5 center, here is a list from Espn of starting centers in the NBA
Team Depth Charts
TEAM C
A. Horford
K. Perkins
N. Mohammed
J. Noah
Z. Ilgauskas
E. Dampier
Nene
A. McDyess
A. Biedrins
Y. Ming
J. Foster
C. Kaman
A. Bynum
D. Milicic
U. Haslem
A. Bogut
A. Jefferson
J. Boone
T. Chandler
E. Curry
N. Collison
D. Howard
S. Dalembert
S. O’Neal
G. Oden
B. Miller
F. Oberto
J. O’Neal
M. Okur
B. Haywood
after Howard, Yao, the next group includes JO, Bynum, Shaq, maybe Oden, Bogut,Jefferson, Chandler. I personally for NEXT season would put JO in the top 5 easily, I could be wrong but being a 6 time all star, 3rd in MVP voting, an all defensive team player, a US olympian, they are some reasons to believe this.
Has he been injured a lot lately? Yes, but so is D Wade and he clearly is among the top at his postion as well.
Oh and by the way he is the perfect fit for team lacking a shot blocker a defencive presence, rebounding, a second scorer, hunger, toughness, playoff experience, and a true center (you can call him a PF if you like he is still one of the premier centers in the NBA)
CB4 will be getting a lot better playing in the Olympics, as will Calderon, Andrea will have a much better season so I believe our younger players are more improved then most teams. Sure those non playoff teams are getting better they always do that is how the NBA works but other teams are getting older as well Clevland, Detriot, Boston.
Would you rather be in the West? Of coutse not.
your quote of
these 6 games …
@ Phi, @ Mil, vs Det, @ Atl, Cha, @ Bos
are going to be a difficult early test for the Raptors to start the 2008-2009 season.
Sure they are tough start but it could be a lot lot worse. We will not go 1-6 we will be good out of the gate and we will be good throught the season.
Those Raps teams in the 90’s might had some sexy names but Oakley, Davis, Willis where at there end of the carrers, Mcgrady was not the T-Mac of now, Alvin Williams could not stay on the court, and Lenny had lost his mind. Don’t get me wrong they were great teams and the best in our franchise history but this team COULD be better.
Khandor I do want to thank you for one thing, not mentioniong his name lately (one of the worst GM’s in the history of professional sports)
Can’t wait to gloat after a solid start and a great season.
Khandor do you root for this team? or are you hoping they fall flat on there face so you can be right? rip BC and get back on the I want to Blow Babcok train? Just curious if your a fan or just the most negative person in the human race?
August 10th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
RBS,
Find a ‘negative’ word written in one of my messages in this thread.
There isn’t one.
Ask yourself the reason you perceive negativity in those messages.
I don’t have the answer to that question, only you do.
IMO, if you gave a high calibre NBA head coach the opportunity to select any player in the League currently as his choice to man the Center position for his team, at this stage of that player’s career … young, old or in-between …Jermaine O’Neal would NOT be one of the first five players this coach would choose … e.g. Tim Duncan, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, Andrew Bynum, Yao Ming, Chris Bosh, Shaquille O’Neal, Chris Laman and Al Horford.
Of course, you are free to hold whatever opinion you wish.
Do I cheer for the Toronto Raptors?
Yes, I do.
There is no team in the NBA I enjoy watching more than the Toronto Raptors and no other team I would like to see the NBA championship.
Hopefully the Raptors can play well enough to start the 2008-2009 regular season so that they can avoid the 1-6 start I see as a very real possibility, IF THEY LOSE GAME #3, at Milwaukee.
Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.
August 10th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Khandor that list you provided are bigs not centers Amare is a PF now Duncan is a PF, Kaman has had one good year, Horford has some potential but if you asked any coach to pick among the list that Espn listed as “centers” then most would put JO in there top 5 for this upcomming season. his resume is unquestioned only the injuries are a a concern.
Glad to here your a raps fans, I am one of the biggest fans as well and have been since day 1, I was at the first ever game, first ever playoff game. We have only gone to the playoffs 5 times twice with this team (Bosh, Parker, Jose, Andrea,etc)
and twice with the Vince, Oakley, Davis era, and another when Carter was hurt and the Mo petes, stepped up and we squaked in.
BC has taken over the rubbage that was left behind and turned the ship around and I as a fan am just so thankful we have a team with 3 potential all stars and a solid shot at competing with any team in the NBA (maybe not the Lakers this year)
As for negativity I am refering to as you know the whole hating/ripping on BC and saying we would be in a better spot if Babcock was still here. Which is clearly beyond negative it’s crazy, silly and just wrong.
When watching the USA team this morning, Doug Collins paid a lot of compliments to Bosh and said with Oneal and Bosh Toronto will have a great front court and be a good team in the East this year.
Clearly most fans allready know this but it is still nice to here.
Khandor sorry for the insensitive remarks I made about you and Babcock as it was just in retalition to you saying i should be flipping burgers based on my typing errors.
You enjoy you Sunday and more importantly the Raps 5-2 start to the season and 46-53 wins and at least 1 playoff round win (I am still predicting a trip to the finals, as long as we get fair officiating in the playoffs)
Believe in BC and the Raps be thankful we have a franchise that is healthier then it has been since day 1. Let Babcock go, for yourself for the fans and so I don’t have to get suicidal again (I am way to young and talented at poker to die)
August 10th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
RBS,
If am no fan of Rob Babcock.
If you read carefully what I wrote elsewhere you will see that what I’ve said is that if the ‘Rob Babcock plan’ … i.e. being bad for several years, then becoming good again with a number of solid draft picks (of which Araujo was NOT one) and other high calibre players/assets … then the Raptors would be better off today, in comparison to where they are at present (i.e. as a treadmill team).
This is not the same thing as being a Rob Babcock fan.
There are countless examples of teams … like the Clippers and the Hawks … being bad for a long time, amassing high draft picks, and still being nothing more than a treadmill team, in comparison with the ‘big boys’, in the NBA.
Being bad, by itself, is no guarantee of success in this League.
What has been shown to work, however, aslo numerous times, is the Basketball Philosophy that states,
“You’ve got to be bad for a while in order to amass the type of resources it takes to ever be REALLY good in the NBA, and have a top notch GM/Head Coach … who knows what it takes to win the championship in this League Team … and, then, draft/acquire a multi-dimensional FOUNDATION Player, that can take your team to the NBA title … e.g. Milwaukee pre-Alcindor (Abdul Jabbar), Portland pre-Walton, Detroit pre-Zeke, Chicago pre-MJ, San Antonio pre-The Admiral/Duncan, Boston pre-Garnett, and Portland pre-Oden.”
Note: When the Lakers acquired Chamberlain, when the Lakers acquired Magic, when the Celtics acquired Bird, when the 76ers acquired Moses, when the Rockets acquired Drexler, when the Lakers acquired Shaq, and when the Heat acquired Shaq, those are special cases where a team that was already very good … i.e. with a number of high calibre players already … added the ‘final’ piece to their puzzle and went on to win it all. This is where the Raptors ‘thought’ they were when they added Olajuwon. This is NOT where the Raptors were in Feb/2006, and NOT where they are today.
My familiarity with the NBA goes back to the halcyon days of Bill Russell’s Celtics, Willis Reed’s Knicks and the great Milwaukee Bucks team with Oscar Robertson, Bobby Dandridge and Lew Alcindor. Since that time, the best GM’s/Management Teams/Head Coaches, in this League, have always been relatively easy to identify … and, I can tell you with a completely straight face that, thus far, I have seen NO EVIDENCE to suggest that the Toronto Raptors actually made ‘The Right Move’ when they hired Bryan Colangelo (Feb/2006), as the GM for their team … if their goal is to win the NBA championship ONE DAY DOWN-THE-ROAD.
Did Jerry Colangelo’s teams in Phoenix ever win the NBA title?
Has Jerry Colangelo’s TEAM USA yet to win a Gold Medal at an Olympic Games or a World Championship?
Note: IF Team USA wins this year it will not be because their team has ‘over-achieved’ in the process, and played above their heads. This Team USA will win the Gold Medal because it was lucky enough to get KOBE BRYANT (the best player in the world today) to sign on-board, amidst the chaos that is USA Basketball today, and save their sorry rear ends on the key Possessions which will decide the eventual winner of this Beijing Tournament. Save for KOBE BRYANT, this version of America’s Dream Team, would NOT win the Gold Medal either, under the direction of Jerry Colangelo.
Have Bryan Colangelo’s teams (in Phoenix and Toronto) ever won a NBA title?
I have nothing against any individual person.
All I do is watch closely … very, very, closely actually
… and do my best to ascertain correctly who has the ability, the know how, and the will (etc.) it takes to actually win competitions of this nature (i.e. NBA titles, Olympic/WC Gold Medals, World Series, Super Bowls, and Stanley Cups, etc.) at the very highest levels … and, who DOES NOT.
What I do is simply referred to as,
“Calling ‘em as I sees ‘em.”
Nothing more and nothing less.
=====================
As I said, before, enjoy the rest of your Sunday!
August 10th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
my bad …
insert
“had been followed”
prior to
” … then the Raptors would be better off today, in comparison to where they are at present (i.e. as a treadmill team).”
in that first paragraph.
khandors last blog post..Ox and Lamb together … well, sort of
August 10th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
I understand where you coming from as to being bad for a long time aquiring drat picks and hopefully that superstar and win titles as opposed to being stuck in mediocrity for years (which the Raps are not stuck in by the way) however each season they are around 5 teams (some years more some years less) that have a legit shot to win a title, I would rather be one of these then constantly hoping that a Jordan or Lebron falls in your lap.
Also Detriot won a title with no super superstars just a solid team so it can happen, however I would agree in the NBA you need that superstar, however they are so many in the NBA now I think you need more then one. Jordan needed Pipen, Shaq needed Kobe or Wade and Magic had tons of help too.
Chris Bosh could be a Duncan and therefore he could be that guy to lead us to a title, does he need more help? Yes.
When you say we would be better off being bad for long period of time acquiring assets I would have to disagree and here is why. You start to breed a loosing culture, players do not want to stay around and will leave via free agency. As I have stated many times before if we were shit for another 5 years with Babcock there is a chance this team would not be in Toronto. Vancouver and the LA Clippers are good examples that high draft picks don’t gurantee sucsess as you stated as well Khandor.
We are not a “treadmill team”. Its been 2 years man. Could we become one?possibly, but BC has proven he will make bold moves and will change direction if he sees fit, a treadmill team to me is the Blue Jays, 7 years of 500 baseball.
All he has done is start to bring credability back to the team that it so desperatly needed.
I respect your way of thinking (I love young talent) but I think you think we are miles away from winning a title where as I think they are 1 player away and he might even emerge from a player currently on our roster taking a giant leap and comming out of now where. Doubtful but possible. We could also trade for a piece during the season that could put us over the top. If Andrea develops into a superstart this season (which I serioulsy doubt) we could gulp trade Bosh for a superstar wing player.
Again very doubtful but how far away is this team. If we compare this years Raps to Boston last year I don’t think its very far
Our big 3 of Oneal, Bosh, and Jose are clearly not as good Boston’s but they are getting better except Oneal who still has a couple of good seasons and there supporting cast is no better than ours and we have some assets in Andrea, Kapono, expiring contracts of Joey and AP and all of our picks going forward so were in great shape.
Chris is one of the best young players in the East still (Lebron, Wade, Howard) being the only others better.
We are not far from being a legit contender if were not all ready.
So I disagree, Khandor to be a good team you have to try to be a good team not suck for 10 years and hope you get a good ping pong ball that is named Lebron or CP3. Staying the coarse of brutality is never planned it just happens, sure teams tank it in the second half when Oden and Durant are a possibility but not at the begining of a season.
In a place like Toronto to attract free agents you have to have a good organization a good GM, and be a place good players want to go.
Like now.
Go Raps
August 10th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Hello all,
I have been following this thread and have been impressed by the depth of basketball wisdom displayed by both Khandor and Blogmaster Shayne - (though not by the formers negativity or the latters phonics). It seems to me that the crux of the issue is: How do we rank J.O.? If we get the healthy, revitalized J.O. that is on display in the Raptors One-on-One video, then I think you have to say “To hell with the lack of a bench, this is a 50 win team.” If you get the weathered and injury-prone J.O. that we’ve seen the past couple of seasons, then I think that the negativity expressed by Khandor is warranted.
IMO, two things are certain - 1) Assuming a healthy J.O., this is a SIGNIFICANTLY better team than last year, even if we are weaker players 5-12 (I don’t see Parker as a weakness and believe he could be a fifth starter on a contending team). For all his skills, Ford was rarely able to translate any of his efforts into victories and in my view, I thought he cost the Raptors a few games with his selfish and inconsistent play. Advancing in the playoffs comes down to showcasing the contributing talent on your roster. A healthy J.O. would probably be the second biggest contributor on the team (after Bosh). Watching last years playoffs, I think a neutral observer would agree that Ford was not much of an asset, nor was our allegedly “deep” bench.
2) Even assuming a healthy J.O., this is still not really close to being a championship caliber team (i.e. we are more than just a decent swingman away from really contending). It is true that we might win 50 games and land the 3rd or 4th seed in the playoffs, but the ceiling for this squad is probably the second round of the playoffs.
In short, the sky is neither falling, as Khandor’s tone (if not his words) are frequently suggesting, nor are we on the cusp of becoming a top tier team, as Blogmaster Shayne seems to imply. I think that what all true Raptors fans need to be doing in this awkward juncture in team history is to help try to give the team ownership some direction. To improve our team, we need to create a grassroots groundswell movement to trade Bargnani while he still has some value. We need to get the media behind this idea, because something tells me that Colangelo is not going to do it on his own - (that would appear too much like admitting a mistake) - so he needs to be pushed into it. Once Bargnani is traded for a contributing piece, then we can make a fair evaluation of the talent on the team and where to go from there. Debating the pluses and minuses of a healthy J.O. is not going to benefit anyone.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
point well made edward. i agree wholeheartedly - this is a middle of a pack team in the east.
i want to speak to your point # 2:
just looking at the makeup of this team, the raptors need:
1. a backup pg with NBA experience
2. a swingman who is attacks the rim, gets to the line and plays lock down defense
3. a legitimate backup center (sorry to everyone out there, humphries isn’t that man imho)
4. a coach who is not only a motivator, but an ‘x & o’ guy who is capable of making in-game adjustments
trading bargnani would be a boon, and seeing what yi jianlian got in return (richard jefferson) it is upsetting to have not heard a raptor rumour for the guy (for Jefferson not to). starting a grassroots movement to get mlse to do anything will be challenging, but if you come up with a good idea, we will support and promote it here.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
RBS,
What you really need to understand at this point is contained in Edward Pickney’s #2 and Rap Fans’, “this is a middle of the pack team.”
Until you truly ‘get this’ … you will NOT comprehend the gravity of the current situation.
Could this team win 50 games this season?
Yes it could. There is talent on this team.
Is it likely to happen?
No it probably will not. There is not ‘enough’ talent on this team.
Not yet, at least.
AND … the PROBLEM IS … the trade for Jermaine O’Neal has SIGNIFICIANTLY depleted this team’s player personnel resources.
For ONE player only, the Raptors … WHO ARE NOT YET IN THE FINAL PIECE TO THE PUZZLE ACQUISITION MODE … just jettisoned:
* TJ Ford
* Rasho Nesterovic
* #17 (Overall) Draft Pick
IMO … that is simply NOT a solid trade.
That’s the kind of trade that leads to a team NOT winning a NBA championship for a very long time … the exact opposite of what this organization’s goals/objectives SHOULD be.
That’s the kind of trade which placates the fanbase … looks good on paper to some … but does not address the team’s long AND short term needs.
[please note ... there was no 'negativity' in anything I just wrote; if you think there was, then, please re-read those words. e.g. 'Negativity' is something "sucks", or calling someone an "idiot/moron/imbecile"]
To compare the 3 ‘best’ players on this Raptors team …
Chris Bosh (who is terrific), Jermaine O’Neal (who was very good) & Jose Calderon (who is terrific)
to
the 3 ‘best’ players on the Celtics …
Kevin Garnett (who will be in the Hall Of Fame), Pierce (who will be in the Hall of Fame) & Ray Allen (who might be in the Hall of Fame)
Well … suffice to say that I would NOT try to say that those two groups are similar at all.
And, when you look at Boston’s bench … it’s a similar situation.
=====================
* The Raptors have depleted their assets.
* The Raptors have little Cap flexibility.
* The Raptors do NOT have a Kevin Garnett, a Kobe Bryant, a Tim Duncan, a Lebron James, a Greg Oden, a Kevin Durant, etc., on their team, right now.
* The Raptors definitely DO NOT have a #2 side-kick, multi-dimensional high calibre, like Scottie Pippen, or Joe Dumars, or Kobe Bryant (to Shaq’s #1 with LA), or Jerry West, or Manu Ginobili, etc. (the list is endless) …
* The Raptors do not have a Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Red Holtzman, Tommy Heinsohn, KC Jones, Gregg Popovich, Chuck Daly, etc., at the helm of their team.
* Nor do the Raptors have a Red Auerbach, or a Jerry West, or a Jerry Krause, or a Joe Dumars, or (even) a Danny Ainge, etc., heading up their Basketball Operations.
I am not impressed by bling.
I have been around a long time.
What I write is based upon what I actually SEE happening on and off the court.
(if others choose to perceive that as being ‘negative’, so be it; there is little I can do about that)
=====================
As, I’ve said before … hopefully the Raptors CAN win that game at Milwaukee (game 3) and AVOID a 1-6 start to the 2008-2009 regular season.
=====================
It’s Monday morning.
The sun is shining.
Everyone have themselves a great day.
I know I will.
khandors last blog post..Ox and Lamb together … well, sort of
August 11th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Khandor, I guess we agree to disagree on a few points.
1. I see Bosh as being equal or close to at is Garnett (bosh is still young and will get better
2. Clearly you think Oneal is not a number 2 option. I do
3. Clearly you don’t think this team is capable of being an elite team in the East. I do
4. Your JO trade reference as you stated below and I qoute.
* TJ Ford
* Rasho Nesterovic
* #17 (Overall) Draft Pick
IMO … that is simply NOT a solid trade.
That’s the kind of trade that leads to a team NOT winning a NBA championship for a very long time … the exact opposite of what this organization’s goals/objectives SHOULD be.
That’s the kind of trade which placates the fanbase … looks good on paper to some … but does not address the team’s long AND short term needs.
You say this does not address this teams shorts and long needs.
well in the short term this team got better defensively, tougher, better rebounding, better shot blocking, second option (wether you like it or not his stats speak for himself) which were all of our needs except on the wing. In the long term we have his expiring contract the same year Lebron, Carmello, Wade, Bosh and half of the NBA becomes free agents and will have the cap room to be able to sign Bosh and someone else of this elite level.
TJ and Rasho was not going to get you Lebron James dude. TJ and Rasho were not going to get you Richard Jefferson, the deals offered were pretty public, From Boris Diaw, to Gerald Wallace neither of them were going to make us better then we are right now.
I would like to know what you would have turned TJ Ford into?
As for my comparison with the Celtics granted Pierce, Garnett, Oneal are all hall of fame players, however our big 3 like I said is not quite at that level but the gap is not as big as you think considering age is cathing up to them fast and Bosh and Jose best days are in front of them.
You say this team is a middle of the pack team which means 1-5 would be top teams in the East 6-10 would be middle of the pack and 11-15 would be bottom. Again I see as a top 5 seed easy (providing were not hit BAD with the injury bug.
Just because they are right at the cap does not mean they have 0 flexability there are trades, expiring contracts that expire after this season or next.
They also have a lot more depth then anyone gives them credit for. Andrea, Moon or Kapono, Hump, Ukic and either Graham or Addams will be a good bench this year once they all get adjusted to there roles and minutes give them 10 games they will be good.
Your not negative your just half empty, way to critical and painful pessimistic. I just thank GOD BC runs this team and you don’t.
It’s funny how BC is looked upon in the US as a top 10 GM and in this City people like you rip him like he is Babcok reunited.
GOOD DAY TO ALL THE REAL RAPS FANS
KEEP BELIEVING
August 11th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
rbs: i just want to talk the bench point you brought up:
===============================
They also have a lot more depth then anyone gives them credit for. Andrea, Moon or Kapono, Hump, Ukic and either Graham or Addams will be a good bench this year once they all get adjusted to there roles and minutes give them 10 games they will be good.
===============================
before i get into it, for my point to have any footing, we need to agree that this years bench isn’t as deep as it was last season, on paper at least (we saw how the bench actually worked out)
So the Raptors lose one of Forderon, they lose Rasho, they lose Delfino, rasho (half starter, half bench) and they lose Baston (marginal).
ukic/solomon wont be nearly as productive as TJ, addams wont replace delfino, they didn’t replace rasho (for half the games, the other half they had bargnani), and finally, anything they get out of graham will be extra imho.
so yes, the starting 5 got better (more then marginally, not exponentially), but the bench is now depleted from what it was, but it is thin from what i see on paper. someone may step-up, i wont count that out…but who?
August 11th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Raps Fan,
If I may, let me ask you this question.
Hopefully your answer can benefit RBS and others who might think in a different way than me.
Which of this two 5-man units is more CAPABLE of winning games in the Eastern Conference?
A) Calderon, Parker, Moon, Bosh & O’Neal
OR
B) Calderon, Parker, Moon, Bosh & Nesterovic
My answer is … there is NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE between the ability of A & B, to win games in the NBA.
That is not to say that Rasho Nesterovic is just as good a basketball player as Jermaine O’Neal.
What it means is that, as 5-man units go, each of those two groups is solid, but in no way spectacular.
[IMO those who think A is substantially better than B ... do NOT fully understand just how good Rasho Nesterovic is, as an NBA player.]
=====================
RBS,
If the assets you mentioned above … e.g. Parker, Moon, Kapono, Graham, Bargnani, etc. … were NOT able to realize any tangible improvements for this year’s team, which is why the Raptors traded the assets they did have for O’Neal … what makes you think these are going to be ‘enough’ (in some combination or another) to upgrade this roster, by this Management Team, next year or the following, etc.?
Trading Rasho … who’s strength was Rebounding and Defense … for a player whose perceived strength is … Rebounding and Defense, in addition to (at one time) being a solid scorer in the NBA … is not the type of trade this team needed to make at this time.
If the Raptors wanted to get better at these two things … which they needed to improve upon, there’s no doubt about that … what they SHOULD have done was package some other combination of players/picks whose strengths ARE NOT Rebounding & Defense, FOR EXAMPLE, like Jason Kapono (or Delfino, or Parker) … and, instead of going for a marquee player like JO, been prepared to get a less notable player back in return … to play those new players in concert with CB4, RASHO, Humphries & Bargnani.
=====================
Speaking of Richard Jefferson …
Considering what the Nets got back in exchange for him,
Do you think they would have traded him straight-up for Bargnani?
[and, before you answer that question... take your time and think about the ramifications of that type of trade for both of these respective rosters]
=====================
The glass is neither half full nor half empty.
August 11th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
I loved Rasho and I think Mitchell totally under used him not just with minutes but he should have been a more focal point of the offence his post game was very underrated.
HOWEVER
Rasho
0 allstar games
0 top 3’s in MVP voting
0 all defensive teams
You percieve JO not to be a defensive presence. You precieve him not to make our 5 man starting unit much better that reality is his shot blocking his shot changing, his toughness, his REBOUNDING (compared to Rasho) is miles apart and exactly what we needed. How soft was this team last year? Your perceptions are incorect.
Jack Armstrong said this team needs to improve the following going in to next season
1. Rebounding
2. Toughness
3. Second scorer
4. An upgrade at the wing postion.
All were accomplished except # 4. This is undenialable if you don’t like JO thats fine but he is 29/30 he averages close to 20 a game and the only question he has is his health, like most bigs not named Howard, his resume speaks for it self (which you might one to check out by the way to educate yourself on one of the great centers in the NBA today).
If you are going to ask me about a trade please make it reasonable as Andreas and Jefferson in a 1 for 1 swap is impossible due to the cap.
NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE?
That is laughable
Oneal and Bosh will be able to clog the lane change shots, block shots, intimate players from attacking the basket (not just Vince either)
plus we have now have the ability to have one of these 2 on the court almost all game if Mitchell plays them right.
NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE is you perception and not reality.
The reality is we have the best frontcourt in the East on both sides of the floor (maybe Howard/Lewis because of Howard himself is equal or better)
with Rasho/ Bosh were soft and not scaring anyone from attacking the rim.
Half full is being nice your just wrong about Oneal, I don’t understand you seem to not like Andrea as a starting center but yet opposed to the trade.
Khandor do you not think we needed to add a player who can block/alter shots and bring some toughness did you not watch last season in Charlotte and the other 50-60 games we got out rebounded and out toughed?
We got a 6 time allstar who is 30 with injury concerns who are not as bad as TJ’s and Rasho who had one year left who most people thought was overpaid at 8 mil.
I won’t change your mind and you won’t chang mind.
Let’s agree to disagree.
The season and playoffs will be the judge.
Maybe you should listen to some of the experts (Doug Collins, John Hollinger from ESPN, Jack Armstrong, Doug Smith, Eric Smith who all seem to be in favor and think this is a good move for the Raps.
I wonder how many experts share you thoery (lauging my ass off) that this team would be better off if Babcock was still here? If this team would still be in this city off course.
GO RAPS
August 11th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
RBS,
At no point did I ever say that I am trying to change your mind.
Are you trying to change mine.
==================================
re: Maybe you should listen to some of the experts (Doug Collins, John Hollinger from ESPN, Jack Armstrong, Doug Smith, Eric Smith who all seem to be in favor and think this is a good move for the Raps.
==================================
LOL, LOL, LOL.
If you only knew the half of it.
==================================
re: All were accomplished except # 4. This is undenialable if you don’t like JO thats fine but he is 29/30 he averages close to 20 a game and the only question he has is his health, like most bigs not named Howard, his resume speaks for it self (which you might one to check out by the way to educate yourself on one of the great centers in the NBA today).
==================================
Try as you might, it doesn’t seem as though you’ve actually read what I’ve written in this thread.
All the best to you, my friend.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 11th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
I never said i was trying to change yor mind.
If I only new the half of it maybe you should enlighten me. Let me guess you can say.
Here is Oneals Resume
6-time NBA All-Star: 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
3-time All-NBA:
Second Team: 2004
Third Team: 2002, 2003
NBA Most Improved Player Award: 2002
NBA Magic Johnson Award: 2004
NBA regular-season leader, blocks: 2001 (228)
Holds Indiana Pacers franchise records for:[8]
Most blocks, game: 10 (January 22, 2003 vs. the Toronto Raptors)
Most blocks, season: 228 (2000–01)
Most rebounds, game, playoffs: 22 (Game 5, 2003 Eastern Conference First Round)
Highest rebounding average, playoff series: 17.5 (2003 Eastern Conference First Round)
Most free throws attempted, game: 25 (January 4, 2005 vs. the Milwaukee Bucks)
NO APPRECIABLE DIFFERENCE? Yes I can read.
Clearly this player will make our starting 5 significantly better.
Enlighten me Khandor
re: Maybe you should listen to some of the experts (Doug Collins, John Hollinger from ESPN, Jack Armstrong, Doug Smith, Eric Smith who all seem to be in favor and think this is a good move for the Raps.
==================================
LOL, LOL, LOL.
If you only knew the half of it.
What are you trying to say are you one of thes guys? Are you saying that just all say they like this deal as part of being Raps broadcaster (the ones that are anyway)
My thoery is your Rob Babcock.
Have a good day friend.
August 11th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
If I only new the half of it maybe you should enlighten me. Let me guess you can say.
meant to say can’t say
August 11th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
all things being equal, i choose team A. o’neal is more productive per minute on the floor then nesterovic:
rasho nesterovic
points per minute: 0.299
rebounds per minute: 0.235
blocks per minute: 0.056
fg%: 49.9%
efg%: 50.2%
ft%: 57.8%
jermaine o’neal
points per minute: 0.511
rebounds per minute: 0.273
blocks per minute: 0.067
fg%: 45.9%
efg%: 48.7%
ft%: 70.5%
frankly, what surprised me is the difference in blocks. i thought o’neal swatted more then rasho (he swats only 20% more, which translates into about 1 more blocked shot every other game - 43 more in a season).
so looking back at the list of things armstrong suggested:
1. Rebounding - marginally better
2. Toughness - about equal (tj and rasho were tough, o’neal is arguably tougher then rasho, but lose toughness at pg)
3. Second scorer - yes, o’neal has 20pt potential
4. An upgrade at the wing postion. - no
1 of the 4 was satisfied, rebounding got a bit better, toughness is about equal or less (if you consider that if the trade wasn’t made, hibbert would have been a backup center, and the boy is tough), second scorer is here, and no upgrade at the wing (bargnani is not a wing player, and will get exposed.
you can’t call the raptors the best front court in the east, when the pistons just added kwame brown to a front court that already boasts rasheed wallace, antonio mcdyess, amir johnson and jason maxiel. that could possibly be the best front court in the league now that camby is a clipper.
one of the things that this trade did do, that i am happy for, is that it seemingly is forcing an identity on the raptors: a half court team. that is the only way to win games/championships imho. the run and gun system that was implemented last few years didn’t work. the trade for o’neal also forced bryco to shorten the lineup, thus forcing smitch to shorten his rotation. and lets not forget we were able to resolve the pg situation.
August 11th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Good points Raps fan
I tend to lean more on a bigger upgrade on the toughness and here is why Oneal will demand others around him be tougher Rasho would not.
Moon, hopefully parker and Joey will be tougher with JO around. How?
IMO Oneal watched Garnett make his team better on D and tougher and Oneal will do the same to a lesser extent obviously. He has a hunger and makes guys around him tougher kind of like Davis or Oakley did.
TJ was tough offensively meaning a will to take it to the whole but on D was trying to help too much and go for steals insted of playing man to man keep my guy in front of me tough D.
Like you said you were surprised by the amount of blocks per minute in comparison to Rasho and Jo
I think when Rasho blocked a shot he sort of snuck up on guys as a shot blocker where Oneal surprises no one and gets challenged less. Meaning there is a intimidation factor with Oneal/Bosh that was not that with Rasho/Bosh.
I would take Bosh/Oneal/Andrea/Hump over Wallace (who plays when he wants and is getting old fast) Mcdyess see getting old, Maxiel who I love and Amir Johnson but thats just me.
I see Rebounding a bigger upgrade as well with Oneal compared to Rasho because he will play more and get more minutes and get a lot more rebounds compared to Rasho/Andrea who maned the postion before.
Meaning we upgraded more because Oneal is a better rebounder not just then Rasho but Andrea as well as his role is reduced.
I ask all including you Raps fan the following:
Where would you rank the Raps in the East?
Where would you rank the Raps starting Bigs in the East?
Where would you rank the Raps starting bigs in the East if Oneal was not here and it was Bosh/Rasho or Bosh/Andrea take your pick?
GO RAPS
August 11th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
RBS,
Of the so-called ‘NBA experts’on the list you gave, there is no one who would make the cut on my team.
I suppose, that’s just one of the differences between you and me, I guess.
=====================
If you’re really interested, and want to learn something about the game … I’ll play along for a while … as long as you play nicely.
[personal insults are not worth my time :-)]
Here are two preliminary riddles for you to ponder.
1) On average, how many Minutes Played (per team) are there in an NBA game?
2) On average, how many ‘Possessions’ are there [per team] in an ‘average’ NBA game?
===============
If you’re willing to play along, I promise it won’t hurt you.
[PS. But no matter what the eventual outcome, there won't be any 'Parting Gifts' (from Johnny Olsen). 8)]
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 11th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Raps Fan,
For the sake of clarity …
========================
re: all things being equal, i choose team A. o’neal is more productive per minute on the floor then nesterovic:
rasho nesterovic
points per minute: 0.299
rebounds per minute: 0.235
blocks per minute: 0.056
fg%: 49.9%
efg%: 50.2%
ft%: 57.8%
jermaine o’neal
points per minute: 0.511
rebounds per minute: 0.273
blocks per minute: 0.067
fg%: 45.9%
efg%: 48.7%
ft%: 70.5%
========================
an individual comparison between Jermaine O’Neal and Rasho Nesterovic DOES NOT answer the specific question I asked. It doesn’t come close.
I wrote …
“as 5-man units go”
not
“as an individual player in a comparison of higher/better rates of on-court productivity”.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 11th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
Khandor, yes I consider Jack Armstrong an expert on basketball and one of the most knowledgable basketball minds in the Country. I consider Doug Collins a knowledge basketball mind as opposed to you and me. especailly you and your opinons.
As for you silly little riddles and me wanting to learn something about the game from you I will pass with all do respect I think these silly ridlles are cute an all but I am here to talk ball and not play silly games.
However I would love a response to my above questions and maybe some answers about you. like your age bracket? What is your background? What your basketball background?
August 11th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
KHANDOR
Stats are nice but some things can not be measured in stats example Garnetts impact was far bigger then the stats would indicate.
A six time allstar changes a culture, changes mindsets, changes goals, demands accounatability. Things Rasho could not do thus making our 5 better not just on paper not just with numbers but with attitude and chemistry and hunger and desire and with winning more games.
Nothing numbers can meassure except wins and losses
August 11th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Also Khandor in response to your thread to me in Kobe Anoys me you said and I quote
A belief that ALL (or even Most) outstanding Big Men take 3-5 years to develop into PRIME TIME players in the NBA is not supported by the facts.
(i) Role playing, funcctional Big Men can/do take time to find ‘their place’ in the League … (ii) TOP NOTCH Big Men do not.
You then list big men who are top noth players insuating they all did not need 3-5 years to develop. This was in a dicussion about Andrea not JO
Here was your list.
TOP NOTCH PLAYERS
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan
Bill Walton
Shaquille O’Neal
Kevin McHale
Willis Reed
George Mikan
David Robinson
Dave Cowens
Moses Malone
Elvin Hayes
Alonso Mourning
Wes Unseld
Robert Parrish
Kevin Garnett
Bob McAdoo
Jack Sikma
Yao Ming
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Patrick Ewing
Dan Issel
Bob Pettit
Rasheed Wallace
Shawn Kemp
Jermaine O’Neal
Chris Bosh
Walt Bellamy
Nate Thurmond
Artis Gilmore
what I find funny is a couple things Oneal and Dirk took the time to develop that you said was not needed and low and behold Oneal made your list, I did not see Rasho on there but somehow he can make us a better starting 5. If you ask most basketball people I think they would all say anyone of these players on your list would make us a better starting 5.
Keep hating, keep contradiciting yourself, keep craking on everyone else opions and trying to justify your twisted view of the Raps and the NBA.
Keep holding on to Rob Babcocks vision what ever makes you happy dude.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
RBS,
A “6-time all-star” isn’t what transformed last year’s Boston Celtics.
KEVIN GARNETT is what/who transformed last year’s NBA champions.
=====================
Please … do not try and compare Jermaine O’Neal to the ‘Big Ticket’.
IF the Raptors were lining up KEVEN GARNETT beside CB4, Moon, Parker, and Calderon, then …
we would NOT be exchanging these ideas right now.
=====================
re: However I would love a response to my above questions and maybe some answers about you. like your age bracket? What is your background? What your basketball background?
=====================
As I’ve already told you … it just doesn’t seem as though you’ve actually taken the time to read what I’ve actually written (here and elsewhere)on-line.
=====================
re: answers to riddles
=====================
That’s okay … riddles aren’t for everyone.
=====================
=====================
Raps Fan,
Basketball is a 5-man game.
Here’s one brief example, just to get you started … if you’re sincerely interested in understanding some of the Mathematics of the game:
Player / Career PPG / 2007-2008 PPG
Kevin Garnett / 20.4 / 18.8
Paul Pierce / 23.1 / 19.6
Ray Allen / 21.1 / 17.4
Kendrick Perkins / 4.8 / 6.9
Rajon Rondo / 8.5 / 10.6
If you add up the individual career scoring averages for Boston’s Starters, this is what you get …
20.4
23.1
21.1
04.8
08.5
—-
77.9
but, if you add up their individual scoring averages for the 2007-2008 season only it yields a different result …
18.8
19.6
17.4
06.9
10.6
—-
72.1
Now, from an Offensive perspective, try and show how the “individual” contributions of those 5 players, right there, can best be measured by comparing their scoring “individual statistics” through the years AND specifically for the 2007-2008 season.
[NOTE: The illustration works the exact same way if, for example, you use REBOUNDS per game instead of PPG.]
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 11th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
The names on that list did not take 3-5 years to develop as top notch basketball players.
Neither did Rasho Nesterovic … who is a solid Role Playing Big Man.
And, neither will Andrea Bargnani … IF HE IS INDEED A TOP NOTCH NBA PLAYER.
Iin general, it’s the bigs WHO DO TAKE 3-5 years of development that can ONLY EVER BE a solid Role Playing Big Man, in the NBA.
=====================
That’s okay … I know that some of the concepts I deal with can be hard for others to understand.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 12:00 am
The 5 man unit with Jermaine in it is hugely superior to the unit with Rasho in it. It’s a far superior defensive squad and a far superior offensive squad, rebounding remains to be seen but is likely comparable.
I’m waiting on the rebounding because I want to see what type of pairing Bosh-Jermaine are on the backboards. There could be gains, there could be losses but most likely it’ll be roughly the same. Rasho had a large impact by using that large frame of his to keep the opposition out of the paint which helped the Raps rebounding indirectly (rather than Rasho snatching the board). I also thought Rasho helped Bosh on the boards. I’m taking a wait and see view on the rebounding angle with Jermaine. Well since Jermaine will be on the court longer the rebounding will be better, but on a unit-to-unit similar minutes basis I’m thinking comparable rebounding.
The unit is also far easier to put on the floor because of Jermaine’s scoring ability which means Rasho (rebounding, interior D) won’t have to be sacrificed when playing against a team like Orlando. Jermaine is also far more capable of playing longer minutes at a high level which again improves the unit because it means their best unit can be on the floor for longer.
____________________
Raps fan,
I think your blocks stats are a bit off. Rasho blocks 1.3 shots per 36 minutes, Jermaine blocks 2.6 shots per 36 minutes. That’s double.
Oh wait, you’re taking career numbers that must be it. Their last year and probably the second last season (injuries harm his most recent numbers) for Jermaine would give better indicators. Took me awhile to see that, didn’t notice it until I looked at Rasho’s shooting numbers and saw they were way down from where I remembered his numbers (FT% stood out) from last season.
Anyway blocking stats can be deceiving. Garnett only blocks 1.4 shots per game (barely more than Rasho last season per 36) but he alters as many shots as anyone in the NBA. Jermaine O Neal is the same way, he alters a huge number of shots, far more than bpg numbers suggest. Every opposing player is looking for him whenever they enter the paint. He’s a real big shot-blocking deal. He’s a great weakside blocker and great man-to-man blocker (blocking his own man is where his major improvement has been in recent years).
Jermaine O Neal is a monumentally superior shot blocker to Rasho Nesterovic
_______________________________
Detroit have nowhere near the best frontline in the East.
-Phily have a better frontline.
-Toronto have a better frontline.
-Boston has a better frontline.
-Cleveland has a better frontline.
-And Orlando possibly have a better frontline with Battie back.
Maxiell is a great backup big. Amir Johnson is very interesting although I’ve lost a lot of faith in him over the past season. Kwame is solid enough. That’s good backups. However their starters are very weak. Rasheed has declined considerably on both ends of the court and McDyess is simply a function role player. Their lack of legit size at center made Kendrick Perkins look like a dominant player in the conference finals last year.
They’re weaker on the boards than their regular numbers indicate, as proven in the playoffs. Their starters can hound the defensive boards but don’t get any offensive boards. Their backups are great offensive rebounders but average or worse defensive rebounders. Maxiell’s poor defensive rebounding cost him any shot at starting at the beginning of last season, Flip Saunders rightfully couldn’t stand how many second chance points he was giving up. Maxiell improved a good deal last season in this regard but is still considerably weaker than Sheed/McDyess, hopefully he’s made enough strides to compete for a starting spot next season.
They lack balance on the boards, they lack balance defensively, and they lack balance offensively. They have a huge scoring void and almost no go-to interior scoring. They’re a mismatched group and their starters lack ability.
____________________
Jermaine isn’t the toughest player around, I’m not convinced the Raps made any gains there. He talks a good game in an interview but on the court …. wouldn’t call him tough. Not inspiring either, not a natural leader.
Guys like Oakley were as hard as they came and he brought some of those same traits out of teammates. Did it his whole career. Jermaine shouldn’t be compared to enforcers like Oak.
What he’ll bring is talent, in other words much improved interior defense. That will be the difference. Not toughness.
Daves last blog post..Oklahoma Acquire Weaver
August 12th, 2008 at 12:01 am
You say I don’t read what you wrote but clearly don’t comprehend what I am saying Please read carefully
Oneal can do more things then the numbers indicate like Garnett did last year with boston.
I am not comparing Oneal to KG I am simplying saying that intangibles will be brought here by Oneal that will make our 5 better then our 5 with Rahso.
Which any sensible fan would know.
You here what you want and then respond to a small distored percieved portion and make your self look even worse.
Clearly what I am saying is we are considerably better as a 5 man unit with a 6 time allstar like Oneal then a nice decent player LIKE Rasho not just with numbers but with all the intangables listed above
DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY POINT NOW? OR SHOULD I EXPLAIN IT TO YOU FOR THE 6TH OR 7TH TIME.
August 12th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Dirk took an entirity to develop and Jo took time look at there numbers.
I never said Andrea would be a superstar I said he will be a solid NBA player. you don’t read, you just talk shit. negative pessimistic bull shit and you contradict yourself.
Your not hard to understant you just talk non sense like this quote
The names on that list did not take 3-5 years to develop as top notch basketball players.
How long did Dirk take? How long did JO take?
your a joke Khandor must be past your bed time your lossing it more so then usual take your prozack and all your other pills bring your walker to bed and don’t swallow Babcocks load with your dentures in. Good night
August 12th, 2008 at 1:05 am
RBS,
Prior to the New Jersey/Toronto 1st Round Playoff Series 2 years ago, which team did you think was going to win?
Prior to this past year’s 1st Round Playoff Series with Orlando, which team did you think was going to win?
Prior to this past year’s NBA Finals, which team did you believe was going to win the championship … Boston Celtics or the LA Lakers?
===================================
You’re right …
Time will tell … if you understand how the NBA game works, or not.
===================================
“What I have written, I have written.” [John 19:17-22]
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 9:20 am
To suggest, as some have, that J.O. is somehow only marginally better than Rasho is not only wrong, its morally reprehensible. Seriously, people have been tried as war criminals for doing less. Taking nothing away from Rasho, he is a consummate professional who can usually perform when called upon, but he’s not really a “starter” quality player in this league. He’s started on some teams that have been really strong at the other positions, but eventually, everywhere he’s gone his teams have found him to be expendable and better suited to being a backup. Hence the numerous occasions on which he has been traded. Teams who have had the option of fitting him in as a warm body to fill the center position have ALWAYS decided to deal him in the end because he’s really not quite a borderline starter. J.O. is a guy that people have tried to build a franchise around. No one would suggest that he is not, even in his hobbled condition, a bonafide starter (though his all-star days are probably behind him). And every team that’s had Rasho has eventually parted ways with him. He’s like the Morris Peterson of big men. If you had the chance to get Richard Jefferson or Caron Butler to replace Morris Peterson, you’d do it in a heartbeat. You wouldn’t say that those type of players are only a marginal upgrade over Peterson, regardless of what the stat sheets show. Its the same with Rasho and J.O. We’re talking about two different caliber players.
Now, a more interesting question is, is J.O. at 22 million a season, really worth 14 million more than Rasho, who I believe is making around 8? The man is definitely an upgrade, but could we have kept Rasho and added a better piece at the 3 for 14 million?
August 12th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Edward Pickney,
I agree … someone who suggests that Rasho Nesterovic, as an individual basketball player, is equal to, or better than, Jermaine O’Neal, as an individual basketball player, needs to have their Basketball IQ questioned.
IMO, however … someone who does not understand/appreciate/recognize how the on-court production from a 5-man unit which includes:
A) Calderon, Parker, Moon, Bosh & O’Neal
OR
B) Calderon, Parker, Moon, Bosh & Nesterovic
can indeed yield an insignificantly different set of W-L records, over the course of a regular season in the NBA …
Needs to have their Basketball IQ questioned.
=====================
I’m not even going to get into the myriad of other line-up combinations which were actually available to last year’s Toronto Raptors, based on their player personnel, OR the combos which exist with their present roster.
=====================
If Rasho Nesterovic was traded, straight up, for Jermaine O’Neal, that would be considered a good trade for the team which received O’Neal.
That’s not what the Raptors did, in this instance.
The Raptors traded
* Rasho nesterovic,
* TJ Ford, and
* Exchanged their draft picks [#17 for #42, or something like that]
in return for
Jermaine O’Neal, from the Indiana Pacers.
=====================
re: is J.O. at 22 million a season, really worth 14 million more than Rasho, who I believe is making around 8?
IMO, you are heading in the ‘right direction’ when you start delving further into stuff like that.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Oh, and … as far as Committing War Crimes go … some would say, that’s a good/bad one.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 10:41 am
and by that I mean … a poor choice of words/analogy, on your part
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Three things Khandor,1) Sorry for the War crimes remark. What I meant to say is that Bryan Colangelo is being tried for war crimes for assembling Raptor players 5-12 and calling it a “roster”.2) The loss of Ford means an increase of minutes for Calderon. This is what is known in mathematics as addition by subtraction. This alone will improve the team dramatically.3) The addition of O’Neal means that one of either Bosh or J.O. will be on the floor at all times. Assuming Mitchell does his job, which isn’t a given. This will result in more wins as the Raptors will actually have a scoring option on the floor when Bosh goes to the bench.
August 12th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Edward Pickney,
re: Three things Khandor,1) Sorry for the War crimes remark. What I meant to say is that Bryan Colangelo is being tried for war crimes for assembling Raptor players 5-12 and calling it a “roster”.2) The loss of Ford means an increase of minutes for Calderon. This is what is known in mathematics as addition by subtraction. This alone will improve the team dramatically.3) The addition of O’Neal means that one of either Bosh or J.O. will be on the floor at all times. Assuming Mitchell does his job, which isn’t a given. This will result in more wins as the Raptors will actually have a scoring option on the floor when Bosh goes to the bench.
1. No problem. From my POV. I think understand how your original comment was meant/intended to come across.
2. I agree that getting more minutes for Calderon should be an improvement for this year’s team overall. This alone is not connected, however, to the perception of which of those two 5-man units is capable of producing more Wins in a NBA regular season, since Calderon’s name appears in both line-ups.
3. There were other scoring options on the roster of last year’s team which could/should have been emphasized when Bosh went to the bench … for example, in a similar way as the San Antonio Spurs operate with/without Tim Duncan on the floor.
Simply having Jermaine O’Neal (with the scoring/defense/rebounding he provides) on the flooor when Chris Bosh goes out, is not necessarily going to be an improvement (i.e. generate more Wins) for this year’s Raptors team, in and of itself.
Basketball is a 5-man game and does not work that way.
[i.e. it depends on who you are; who your teammates are; who your coach is; who your GM is; etc.; and, what each of you, in combination, bring to the banquet table ... each and every day]
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Last time I checked NBA impact players improved 5 man units made teams better and added wins. Khandor Shaq wants to know how does Babcocks ass taste?
August 12th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Khandor,
Just so I am clear, are you saying that this year’s team, assuming a healthy J.O. is not going to be superior to last years? I am confused on this point. Personally, I feel we will be better by about 5 games and could advance to the second round of the playoffs - depending on the matchup we draw in the first round.
I believe that I am with you on logic behind the J.O. trade - it fails to make sense to me how this move will help us actually build a contender over the long-term. However, even though I disagree with the trade in principle, I have to acknowledge that we are a stronger team today then we were a few months ago. The garbage that the Raptors put on the floor after the all-star break was not even worthy of a .500 record.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
RBS,
=====================
re: Last time I checked NBA impact players improved 5 man units made teams better and added wins. Khandor Shaq wants to know how does Babcocks ass taste?
=====================
If Shaq and I would talk the conversation wouldn’t involve Rob Babcock. It would involve a mutual acquaintance of ours, who was instrumental in his development, both, as a person and a dominant basketball player.
=====================
Because …
Shaq helped bring a championship to Miami, and
Garnett helped bring a championship to Boston
doesn’t mean that adding Jermaine O’Neal, to the Raptors [in exchange for Nesterovic, Ford and an exchange of Draft Picks] … is going to have a SIMILAR EFFECT, either, this season or down-the-road, for Toronto.
1. Jermaine O’Neal is simply NOT in the same category, as an elite level basketball player, in comparison with Kevin Garnett or Shaquille O’Neal.
Earlier, uou put up some of the accolades which have been bestowed on Jermaine O’Neal, to this point, in his basketball career.
I could be wrong about this, but … I don’t think it’s really ncessary for me to post the accolades which have been bestowed on either KG or Shaq … is it?
[at least, I should hope not]
2. The remainder of Toronto’s current roster (which speaks to Edward Pickney’s point) … is not equivalent to that of the 2005-2006 Miami Heat or the 2007-2008 Boston Celtics.
[if you think it is ... so be it ... I am not going to try to change your mind]
=====================
In general … you have your perceptions about the game; teams, and individual players; and I have mine.
In general … you have the way you present those perspectives; and I have mine.
Nuff said.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
There will be a huge difference in the 5 man lineup from Rasho to Jermaine. Were the negative loss will be is from the backup point and overall perimeter play.
The Raptors have a very weak group of players on the perimeter, the weakest of any playoff team, and they were able to get by some of that by having 48 minutes of high caliber point guard play. Having one of Ford/Calderon on the floor at all times meant their perimeter was less exposed by having an above average starting point guard who could dictate the flow of the game at all times. That loss will have a negative effect and will cancel out a size-able chunk of the gains made from Jermaine over Rasho in the starting lineup.
The loss really shouldn’t be as important as it will be from an individual talent standpoint (since Jermaine has far more value than Ford or Rasho or both together) …. but because the whole perimeter group (the collective) is so weak that loss will have a greater effect. It’s made a weak point even more vulnerable.
It’s a hole that is very fixable and easily fixable but it hasn’t been addressed and it doesn’t appear that it will be addressed before the season.
The Raps took a step forward but it isn’t a large step and it won’t be that until they upgrade the perimeter, upgraded both defensively and offensively.
If they do make those necessary changes the Jermaine trade could look very good. If they don’t well it’s all much of a nothingness.
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 12th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Edward Pickney,
=========================================================
re: Just so I am clear, are you saying that this year’s team, assuming a healthy J.O. is not going to be superior to last years? I am confused on this point. Personally, I feel we will be better by about 5 games and could advance to the second round of the playoffs - depending on the matchup we draw in the first round.
I believe that I am with you on logic behind the J.O. trade - it fails to make sense to me how this move will help us actually build a contender over the long-term. However, even though I disagree with the trade in principle, I have to acknowledge that we are a stronger team today then we were a few months ago. The garbage that the Raptors put on the floor after the all-star break was not even worthy of a .500 record.
=========================================================
First.
Start with this instead:
The Pythagorean Theory For Win% in the NBA indicates that the 2007-2008 Toronto Raptors SHOULD have been able to generate approximately 56 Wins from last season, based on Points Scored and Points Allowed totals.
In reality, however, that team produced a 45-37 W-L record.
According to this theory … if there had been NO changes whatsoever to last year’s roster … the 2008-2009 Raptors team could reasonably have been expected to produce somewhere between 45-56 wins, given that their levels of Team Productivity stay about the same and their W-L performance is normalized over a period years of consecutive years.
Given this probability …
How much of an improvement in the Raptors W-L record for the upcoming 2008-2009 Regular Season … if it happens at all … SHOULD properly be attributed to the insertion of Jermaine O’Neal into their line-up?
[i.e. If the 2007-2008 team SHOULD have won somewhere closer to 56 games, rather than only 45; and the 2008-2009 team actually DOES win somewhere closer to 56 games, if it puts up similar scoring numbers [Pts For & Pts Vs], what’s the reason this gain/increase in Wins … from an under-achieving 45 [the previous season] … SHOULD be attributable to Jermaine O’Neal’s arrival? … if you get my drift]
Second.
Because a healthy Jermaine O’Neal is a better individual basketball player, in comparison with Rasho Nesterovic, does not mean that this team, this year, is in fact going to produce similar Production Levels, as it did last season, and achieve a superior W-L record.
Here’s but one example I can think of:
If Calderon, Parker, Moon, Nesterovic & Bosh were allowed to play together for significant minutes during the 2008-2009 season MIGHT
* Calderon’s numbers have gone up [with more PT overall]
* Parker’s numbers stayed the same [with the same PT overall]
* Moon’s numbers have gone up [with more PT overall & in his 2nd yr]
* Nesterovic’s numbers have gone up [with more PT overall]
* Bosh’s numbers stayed the same [with the same PT overall]
and, with Jermaine O’Neal’s arrival this year MIGHT we now see
* Calderon’s numbers go up [with more PT overall]
* Parker’s numbers stay the same or go down [with the same PT overall but possibly fewer shot opportunities available]
* Moon’s numbers go up or stay the same [with more PT overall & in his 2nd yr but with fewer shot opportunities available]
* O’Neal’s numbers stay the same or go down [with the same PT overall but possibly fewer shot opportunities availabe with Bosh (and Bargnani) in Toronto]
* Bosh’s numbers stay the same or go down [with the same PT overall but possibly fewer shot opportunities available with O'Neal now in Toronto]
not to mention similar increases or declines in other areas of the game, as well, e.g Rebounds, Shot Blocks, FTA’s, etc.
Basketball is a 5-man game with certain gives and takes that exist as new players are introduced into the line-up AND other players are removed.
When you add a group’s individual values together (cummulatively) …
1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 = 15
and then you change the value of one of those parts
i.e. 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 5
sometimes the cummulative total DOES NOT equal what you think it might,
in this case … 16
but it simply stays the same …
e.g. 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 4 = 15
or, in fact, can possibly be decreased overall …
e.g. 1 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 5 = 14
in relation to the other teams it is playing against, that might have improved their team as well, to a greater degree than the Raptors … especially, in light of the other players lost and added to Toronto’s current roster this season.
August 12th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
Dave,
You keep saying something along the lines of:
Jermaine O’Neal’s value is so much more than Rasho Nesterovic’s … he will be a significant upgrade to the Raptors’ line-up, by himself.
Please explain how this perceived increase in ‘value’ which you claim he has (when healthy) NECESSITATES that Bosh, Moon, Parker and Calderon WILL in fact maintain their same levels of productivity, as last season, or increase their individual value … rather than go down when playing with a player like Jermaine O’Neal.
[e.g. Did the Pacers play better or worse last season when Jermaine was in their line-up ... assuming that the times he actually played, he was in a healthy 'enough' condition?]
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Khandor, I never once said Garnett, Oneal are in the same category.
Your are talking numbers and are not realizing there are other factors besides stats and numbers.
If you read what I wrote you may start to understand the game of basketball.
Until then keep living with your The Pythagorean Theory For Win% I am sure that does not count for taking charges, altering shots, and the other intangables that I have refered to countless times regarding JO.
OFFENCE WILL BE BETTER WITH BOSH/ONEAL FRONT COURT
DEFENCE WILL BE BETTER WITH BOSH/ONEAL FRONT COURT
TEAM REBOUNDING WILL BE BETTER WITH ONEAL
ADDING ONE ALL STAR CAN CHANGE YOUR TEAM FROM AVERAGE TO GOOD IN THE NBA I DON’T THINK THERE IS ANY DEBATING THAT IS THERE?
IF YOU THINK JO IS A TOP NOTCH BIG AS YOU STATED IN THE PREVIOS THREAD (KOBE ANNOYS ME) WHU ARE YOU SO OPPOSED TO THIS TRADE AND WHAT OTHER REALISTIC TRADE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER?
WHAT TEAM IN THE EAST HAS A BETTER STARTING FRONT COURT THEN US?
HOW MANY TEAMS WOULD HAVE A BETTER STARTING FRONT COURT IF WE STILL HAD BOSH/RASHO
KHANDOR DONT RESPOND WITH BULL SHIT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.
August 12th, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Edward Pickney,
In the message directed to you, two above this one … please substitute the number “51″ where I originally have “56.
Was using slightly different data when I wrote 56.
Sorry for any confusion.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Khandor,
You’re acting like the club has three or four 20ppg scorers and there can’t be enough shots to go around. The club had only one quality scorer last season and a bunch of complementary scorers. They can easily insert another scorer. Another scorer will only benefit the rest of the team because it will create better opportunities for the lesser players/scorers on this squad (double teams, spacing). Jermaine’s post game will also create more opportunities for the three point shooters just like he did in Indiana. Guys like Kapono are better players when they have guys like Wade and Shaq creating their shots instead of trying to do it themselves, Jermaine helps bring more out of players like Kapono.
The lack of a second scoring option has been a terrible hole for the Raptors. It’s especially hurt in the playoffs when opposing teams have been able to load up on Bosh and force someone like Parker to create his own shot, which is a series the Raptors were never going to win. That lack of diversity offensively was a killer blow.
The Raptors had the lowest second scorer in the league! The whole league! the lowest! Only 5 teams had second scorers below 15ppg, and three of them were the worst of the worst (Cleveland’s the other). This is not a team that is going to struggle to incorporate another scorer. This is a team that desperately needed another scorer.
The Raptors don’t have a bunch of players that take high shot attempts. Only one player on the Raptors averaged more than 10.5 shot attempts, that’s freakish. Bosh also takes a limited number of shots, only 5 players in the top 25 scorers in the league take comparable or less shot attempts than Bosh. Only three others averaged over 9 shot attempts - Bargnani, TJ, Parker. There’s more than enough shots to go around. Jermaine’s shot attempts can be created by Ford’s and Rasho’s attempts by themselves (16 field goal attempts, roughly Jermaine’s average while in Indiana). Giving Jermaine shot attempts isn’t going to take shots away from other players. The shots are there.
This is also a team that had hardly any offensive diversity. Either Bosh in the mid post or high screen and rolls. This made them increasingly vulnerable to the opposition’s defensive game plans, especially in the playoffs. Jermaine adds a legit post game to the arsenal making the Raps harder to game plan against.
______________
The Pacers were a vastly superior side with Jermaine in their lineup. That’s why they were rushing him back for the late season playoff charge.
Last season Jermaine’s year was ruined by injuries. He only had one near healthy month of basketball and he spent most of that month working himself into shape. Because of injuries he was nowhere near his usual self on the offensive side of the court and didn’t get enough time with his teammates to develop cohesiveness offensively (why Indiana has poor offensive efficiency numbers with him in the lineup only once in 6 seasons) although you could clearly tell they were going to be far better with a healthy O Neal in that low post.
Even last season, while visibly playing through injuries, the Pacers’ defensive efficiency veered from 4th best in the NBA to 21st dependent on whether Jermaine O Neal was on the floor. The guy is an impact player. The defensive improvement in particular will not adversely affect any other Raptor player.
The year before, however, his club were 7.4 points better off with on the floor versus of it.
You can tell straight away by watching the games that they were a better side when Jermaine was on the floor. You’ll see the same thing this coming season with the Raps.
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 12th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Great points Dave
Very well stated
It’s no brainer we a better team and he makes everyone around him better on both ends of the court.
If Khandor would listen instead of blowing Babcock and calcualting The Pythagorean Theory For Win% (LMFAO) and maybe watched a game or two he might start to understand the impact he will have on this team this year but he won’t. Let him be the negative, pessimistic, twisted, stuborn so called Raps fan and save your breath/fingers. He wont get it. Trust me
August 12th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
Kandor talks shit, he doesnt answer any questions straight forward, he just types a bunch of nonsense that nobody understands so they cant say anything back to him. True fag. RBS, told you off;
Raptorize Blogmaster Shayne Says:
August 12th, 2008 at 6:32 pm
Khandor, I never once said Garnett, Oneal are in the same category.
Your are talking numbers and are not realizing there are other factors besides stats and numbers.
If you read what I wrote you may start to understand the game of basketball.
Until then keep living with your The Pythagorean Theory For Win% I am sure that does not count for taking charges, altering shots, and the other intangables that I have refered to countless times regarding JO.
OFFENCE WILL BE BETTER WITH BOSH/ONEAL FRONT COURT
DEFENCE WILL BE BETTER WITH BOSH/ONEAL FRONT COURT
TEAM REBOUNDING WILL BE BETTER WITH ONEAL
ADDING ONE ALL STAR CAN CHANGE YOUR TEAM FROM AVERAGE TO GOOD IN THE NBA I DON’T THINK THERE IS ANY DEBATING THAT IS THERE?
IF YOU THINK JO IS A TOP NOTCH BIG AS YOU STATED IN THE PREVIOS THREAD (KOBE ANNOYS ME) WHU ARE YOU SO OPPOSED TO THIS TRADE AND WHAT OTHER REALISTIC TRADE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER?
WHAT TEAM IN THE EAST HAS A BETTER STARTING FRONT COURT THEN US?
HOW MANY TEAMS WOULD HAVE A BETTER STARTING FRONT COURT IF WE STILL HAD BOSH/RASHO
KHANDOR DONT RESPOND WITH BULL SHIT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.
—————————————————————————
You did’nt even answer that, you just said some next shit. Your a true idiot.
August 12th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
RBS,
I do not evaluate NBA teams based on distinctions between (i) Back-court and (ii) Front-court units.
If this is the Raptors best 5-man unit:
Calderon, Parker, Moon, Bosh & O’Neal
(which, BTW, I do NOT believe is the case this year)
then, IMO, the following teams MIGHT have as good or better a group-of-5 in the Eastrn Conference this year with which to play the majority of their team’s minutes:
BETTER
Boston - Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Perkins
Detroit - Billups, Hamilton, Prince, McDyess, Wallace
POSSIBLY AS GOOD (in the mix with Toronto)
Orlando - Nelson, Bogans, Lewis, Turkoglu, Howard
Cleveland - Gibson/?, Pavlovic, James, Wallace, Ilgaukas
Washington - Arenas, Stevenson, Butler, Jamison, Haywood
Philadelphia - Miller, Iguodala, Young, Brand, Dalembert
Atlanta - Bibby, Johnson, Williams, Smith, Horford
Indiana - Ford, Dunleavy, Granger, Foster, Nesterovic
Milwaukee - Williams, Redd, Jefferson, Villanueva, Bogut
New Jersey - Harris, Carter, Najera, Williams, Lopez/?
Chicago - Rose/?, Hughes, Deng, Thomas, Noah
Charlotte - Felton, Richardson, Wallace, Okafor, Mohammed
NOT AS GOOD
Miami - Chalmers/?, Wade, Marion, Haslem, Mourning/?
New York - Duhon/?, Crawford, Gallinari, Lee, Curry/?
depending, of course, on remaining player transactions and coaching decisions.
===================================
Although Jermaine O’Neal is not in the same category as men like Garnett and Shaq, etc. … he can STILL be considered to be one of the Top Notch Big Men in the Modern Era, along with, for example, a still very young Chris Bosh (amongst others, as well).
And, just because adding a Top Notch Big Man, for example, like Rasheed Wallace, put the Pistons into an elite category of teams … DOES NOT mean that adding that very same player (Sheed), for example, to THIS specific team of Raptors players will achieve a SIMILAR EFFECT, in terms of Wins and Losses.
Why is that?
Cause:
(i) Basketball doesn’t work like that; and,
(ii) Calderon + Parker + Moon + Bosh + RASHEED = ???
is NOT the same ‘equation’ as
Billups + Hamilton + Prince + Wallace + RASHEED = 1 NBA Title
=========================================================
re: relying on game stats to evaluate NBA teams and individual players
Anyone who has taken the time to read what what I’ve written on-line … here and elsewhere … would know already that I, personally, PLACE VERY LITTLE STOCK IN THIS TYPE OF BASKETBALL EVALUATION, and IN THOSE WHO PRACTICE IT.
=========================================================
re: comparing Jermaine O’Neal to Kevin Garnett
This is what you said,
“IMO Oneal watched Garnett make his team better on D and tougher and Oneal will do the same to a lesser extent obviously. He has a hunger and makes guys around him tougher kind of like Davis or Oakley did.”
If that isn’t comparing JO to KG … to a lesser extent … but, still, a comparison, nevertheless … then, please accept my sincere apology.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Khandor,
What do you think is the Raps best 5 man lineup this coming season?
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 12th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Better on D and tougher to a lesser extent. Is that comparing KG to Oneal? no
not comparing there total value just some of the intangables are the same that they would both be bringing to new teams (defence and toughness) Now do you understand? TAKE 8
It’s cute that you won’t anwser the questions as asked as we all know the answers anyway so it’s not necessary.
Basketball is not a math equation.
So you will rank PG’s in the NBA but not front courts. you will rank Top Notch bigs but not front courts, just 5 man starting units.
The Khandor way of thinking I guess.
Way to go out a limp by ranikng top 2 then the next 11 and then the bottom 2. By the way the Heat will be better then you give thme credit for.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
How can in your words
he (JO) can STILL be considered to be one of the Top Notch Big Men in the Modern Era, along with, for example, a still very young Chris Bosh (amongst others, as well).
A top notch Big man added to a team that desperately needed toughness, rebounding, shot blocking, shot altering, second scoring option not make them significantly better?
Since I know Khandor will either not answer or answer with out answering or answer with garbage that will not be correct maybe somebody else can answer for me.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Dave,
========================================================
re: Guys like Kapono are better players when they have guys like Wade and Shaq creating their shots instead of trying to do it themselves, Jermaine helps bring more out of players like Kapono.
========================================================
If the Raptors had either of Shaq or D-Wade … I’d agree with you, in this regard, related to Kapono.
We’re not talking about adding a possible All-time Great Player here, like either of those two men.
To mimick the immortal words of Allen Iverson,
“What we’re talking is Practice (Jermaine O’Neal), man.”
That’s a different beast entire.
As a point of comparison, I will grant you that Jermaine O’Neal is similar in quality to a player like … lo and behold … Chris Bosh … and, it was on FULL DISPLAY last year, exactly what benefit it was to Jason Kapono to line up next to Chris Bosh, in comparison to either D-Wade or Shaq, never mind having BOTH in the same line-up with him, on occasion during the Heat’s championship season.
======================
re: The Pacers on-court performance last season with Jermaine O’Neal
I’m not interested in their respective EFFICIENCY RATINGS. I am interested in their teams actual W-L record (i) With O’Neal in the line-up vs (ii) Without O’Neal in the line-up.
What was it, if you know? … cause I DO NOT have this information.
(although, I do recall reading one report one time earlier this spring which made the claim that last year’s Pacers team had a better W-L record without O’Neal than with him … hence the reason for me asking you if you know the answer to this question … ya, dig?)
And, how the Pacers team played the YEAR BEFORE with/without O’Neal in the line-up is irrelevant to how their team performed last season in this similar capacity … e.g. he was one year older last season, the mix of players he was with before last year was very different (i.e. of a higher calibre overall, in comparison, given men like Reggie Miller, Stephen Jackson, Artest, etc.)
=====================
The example I used before, re: the number of shots being available this season for other players like Calderon, Parker, Moon and Bosh is NOT dependent on whether or not THOSE plaers are volume shooters, it depends, instead, on whether or not JERMAINE O’NEAL is a VOLUME SHOOTER.
=====================
IMO … the importance you are placing on the existence of a credible 2nd scoring option … although legitimate, in a sense … is being negated by your inability to acknowledge the importance of the specific position THAT 2nd scorer USUALLY NEEDS to play, in relation to the position played by the 1st scorer.
For example:
Pierce (SF) added Garnett (PF) & Allen (SF)
TD (C) added Manu (OG/SF)
Hamilton (OG) added Wallace (PF/C)
Shaq (C) had Kobe (OG/SF)
*** Robinson (C) did indeed add Duncan (C) ***
Jordan (OG/SF) had Pippen (OG/SF)
Hakeem (C) added Drexler (SF)
Do you remeber who the Bad Boyz added to go with Zeke (PG) & Vinnie Johnson (OG), and Joe D (OG) to put them over the top? I do.
Bird (SF) had McHale (PF)
Magic’s later Lakers teams had scoring options coming out of their wazoos.
Magic’s original Showtime Lakers had Kareem (C) + Wilkes (SF) + Nixon (OG)
Dr J. added Moses
Gus Johnson (PG) had Freddie ‘Downtown’ Brown (OG) then added Jack Sikma (C)
Elvin Hayes (PF) had Phil Chenier (PG/OG) then added Kevin Greivey (sp?) (OG)
Rick Barry … had a very special team during a very special season.
Dave Cowens had John Havelichek then added JoJo White (OG)
West (OG) added Chamberlain (C)
Willis Reed (C) had Walt ‘Clyde’ Frazier (PG) then added Earl ‘the Pearl’ Monroe (OG)
Robertson (PG/OG) added Alcindor/Jabbar (C)
etc., etc, etc. …
It isn’t so much the case that a team just NEEDS to have a second scorer on its team, if it is ever going to be considered a legitimate threat to win the the championship one day in the future, regardless WHO that 2nd player IS and the position he plays.
As I’ve said before … Basketball is (at least) a 5-man game ( … if not an 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 or 15-man game).
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
RBS,
I will rank individual players by the positions they can play.
I will rank 5-man units.
I will rank 8 (or 9) -man player team rotations.
I will rank entire teams.
I do not rank ‘front-courts’, as a separate unit on a basketball team. (e.g. if a team plays 4 out/1 in … Who is the PF? Who is the OG? Or, the SF?)
Neither do not rank ‘back-courts’, as a separate unit on a basketball team. (e.g. what about a team that uses its #2 & #3 players, as interchangible ‘Wings’? Where do they fit into the overly-simplistic ‘back-court’ equation?)
If you cannot accept that … or, it isn’t satisfactory ‘enough’ for you … then that might be your loss but it certainly isn’t mine.
=====================
Because a team adds a player who has been a Top Notch Performer, over the course of his career to that point in time, does not mean that his new team is going to encounter an AUTOMATIC jump up in performance, on account of his addition at that stage of his career.
Yes, it might happen.
No, it might not happen, either.
It depends on who HE IS … and, on WHO HIS TEAMMATES AND COACH, etc., are, as well.
=====================
re: not answering the questions asked
In general … the ANSWERS are right there in front of you … problem might be, you don’t like (appreciate?) some of them … because they don’t jive with your own perceptions of the game.
NOTE to RBS: That’s okay, you’re allowed to have as many different perceptions from mine as you might happen to want. In fact, 1000’s of them if you wish.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
I don’t know what the Pacers win loss record was with and without O Neal last season. I’ll check for you …. I imagine it was better with him because they started strongly then faded after injuries to Tinsley and Jermaine (Tinsley’s injury was more important at the time) … I’m counting 19-23 with Jermaine in the lineup versus 17-23 without him.
I disagree about last season being a better judgement of his present game. He was severely struggling through injury hampering his contributions last season. For the first month of last season he could barely jump, he had guards blocking his turnaround J which was previously one of the toughest shots in the league to reject. He was visibly hampered through the majority of the games. He had one good stretch (almost a month) and even then he was only at about 80%.
Only considering his contributions from last year will give you a wholly inaccurate picture of Jermaine’s quality.
__________________
I completely agree with your point about Jermaine not being the ideal type of second option (a point I’ve made in the past). My preference for that ideal player would be someone of the Joe Johnson ilk. A scoring swingman who has a versatile offensive repertoire (perimeter game, midrange game, finish in traffic, post game) and someone who can create for himself and others off the dribble.
Just because the man isn’t the ideal second scoring option doesn’t mean he has no value. He does, he has large value as second scorer. He has more value than someone like Richard Jefferson/Jason Richardson who would play a better position but do not have the correct skill set to truly complement Bosh.
Jermaine-Bosh unlike a Curry-Zach combination also complement one another. Jermaine is best off in that 6-10 feet range and Bosh in that 8-16 feet range. They can both go inside and out. Both are comfortable playing in different spaces in the halfcourt, although Jermaine’s value falls if he spends too much time outside of 15 feet. They can both work the pick and roll. They both set good screens. Both are smart players. Bosh is a good passer, Jermaine is a solid passer. These aren’t two players who can’t operate together like a Curry-Zach combo, these are two players who should be very effective next to one another. Also on the defensive end they’re going to be a very good combination - unlike a Ben Gordon-Hinrich combination which does the opposite, or Eddy-Zach again.
________________________
Jermaine has more value to Kapono than Bosh does. His post game forces more defensive attention and more space and shooting opportunities for the perimeter guys to exploit. Jermaine will open up the game for his teammates.
Bosh was never the type of player that would bring the best out of Kapono and that’s one of the many reasons I greatly dislike that signing.
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 12th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Just on the second scorer point. If the team did acquire someone like Joe Johnson instead of Jermaine I’d expect the club to take a much larger step forward and be more dangerous come playoff time next season.
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 12th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Dave,
Based on the current roster of players … it would depend, to some extent, on the specific opponent this team is matched up against, and the style of play it intends to use.
One line-up I would strongly consider using for key stretches against the quality teams in the NBA … is one which I have already given you, and which you rejected, as being untenable …
e.g. Calderon, Moon, Graham, O’Neal & Bosh
IMO … this would turn:
* Jose (PG) into a legitimate No. 2 scoring option, in conjunction with O’Neal (No. 1) & Bosh (No. 3);
* Moon into a BIG ‘Off Guard’ Defender/Rebounder (not at the 3 & 4 spots where he played and struggled at times last season) with solid athleticism at that spot, in the NBA, and a Corner Spot-up Jump-shooter with the option to curl off screens in specific sets, allowing him to catch & drive into the lane for his mid-range jumper, and not letting him take a series of ill-advised catch & shoots at the FT Line extended
* Graham into a non-scoring (Corner Spot-up shooter ONLY … ala Bruce Bowen), REBOUNDING, Defensive glue guy … who would need to learn how to play through his many physical and mental miscues, but who brings a level of athleticism no other current players bring to the table for this team
* O’Neal and Bosh, as inter-changible Bigs but with O’Neal as the No. 1 Scoring Option (in the Low Post) in the Half-court & Bosh as the No. 3 Scorer (in the Mid-Post); and, defensively, with O’Neal checking the stronger Low-Post scorer of the opposition 1-on-1, and allowing Bosh to roam free, providing off-the-ball help in the lane and Shot-blocking AND concentrating the vast majority of his energy on REBOUNDING every shot single shot attempt for this team (on D, for sure, and as well, on O).
A second unit I would favour is using Jason Kapono (in place of either Moon or Graham), as the Designated Shooter, each trip up the floor on Offense … ala Reggie Miller & Norm Nixon, of yesteryear … again, at the 2 position on Offense … knowing full well that his ball-handling is going to be limited, and his D on whatever opponent player he is checking that game … but expecting him to become the No. 2 scoring option behind Jermaine O’Neal (No. 1) & Chris Bosh (No. 3), AND that he REBOUND like a Titan with his size at that spot (especially, since he can’t defend a lick).
In addition, I particularly like the size of Anthony Parker, as a Back-up Point Guard, in the NBA … in addition to his duties as a Back-up Off Guard for this team … which is a position he played sporadically when he was with Macabbi Tel-Aviv.
It’s a job which he can do, at this level as well, for short stretches of time, if he’s coached properly, and made into a Secondary Scoring Threat (nothing more than that).
It would also give this team a much different look/level of flexibility than it’s had for several years … dating back to the T-Mac, Christie & Carter line-up, which I thought had terrific potential, if that trio could have stayed together for a stretch of years.
Obviously, Parker + Kapono (No. 2 Scorer) + Moon (or Graham) isn’t of the same calibre as those three former Raptors but, as a temporary unit … that’s a very interesting threesome to put out on the court together with the likes of O’Neal (No. 1 Scorer) + Bosh (No. 3 Scorer) … that can REALLY REBOUND the ball.
In general, a huge key in finding success at the NBA level is (i) having either a GUARD or a FORWARD or a CENTER who is an AUTOMATIC SCORER from his respective position, and then (ii) having a Point Guard that can take care of the ball, penetrate when needed, Defend with Size, and hit his perimeter J shots and his FT’s when needed, in low dose numbers … AND THEN … what is most often over-looked after these first two, is… constructing a team with the ability/commitment to REBOUND the basketball, as a championship calibre team MUST BE ABLE TO DO.
At this level, in order to be able to do THAT … your team must have a certain degree of SIZE & ATHLETICISM … for example, see the VALUE of a true Specialist Player like Dennis Rodman … at a variety of different positions (#1-5) in your regular rotation.
There you go.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Dave,
Just read your thoughts on Jermaine O’Neal as an ideal No. 2 Scorer, with a team that has a Joe Johnson type, as it’s No. 1 Scorer … with which I completely concur.
What I said above, about him becoming a the No. 1 Scoring Option for this Raptors team, as we both seem to understand, is based on the fact that there is NO JOE JOHNSON TYPE WING PLAYER on this current roster.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 12th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
As far as JO contribution to the Pacers as far as strictly wins and losses,
this is the breakdown:
Year With/Without
07 19-23/17-23
06 32-37/3-10
05 26-25/15-16
04 23-21/21-17
03 57-21/4-0
02 44-33/4-1
01 40-32/2-8
00 40-41/1-0
Which translates into the Pacers being 281-233 with JO in the lineup (or 55%) any they are 67-75 without him (47%). I have to agree with dave, JO changes the lineup, solid D adds a scoring presence (not as great as others) but still a legit scorer in this league. Last year JO only played over 30 minutes 20 out of the 42 games he played in, another reason why last year is not a true translation into what he is capable of when healthy.
I agree that JO’s contract is stiff but to all those that claim that this does not help this team in the future needs to remeber that if this JO experiment does not work, in 2009 the raps have 20 mil dollars to work with with a free agency that includes Kobe, Boozer, Marion, Nash, Okur, Iverson, Artest, Odom, Turkolu, Bynum, etc. If the experiment works, JO will be resigned for way less than 20 mil next time around, if it doesnt, the raps have space to make a run at all these guys. so in 2009 this team will have space to work with. Im not saying any of these guys would or will sign with the raps but the possibility is there with ample money to spend.
As far as Bargnani goes, I am disappointed that he did not improve last year, but I will give him this year before we throw him under the bus and I suggest you all do as well. Colangelo is the captain of the Andrea ship and he will go down with his decision. We must accept this. I am sure he was given many trade offers but be realsitic people, if you made this pick as a GM and defended it from day 1 like BC did, you would stick by it, that is what pride does to you.
August 12th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
THE SPURS WON A TITLE WITH DUNCAN/ROBINSON AS TWO BIGS BEING THERE TWO MAIN SCORING OPTION
NOTE KHANDOR I AM NOT COMPARING DUNCAN/ROBINSON TALENT TO BOSH/ONEAL
I AM SAYING THAT 2 BIGS WERE THE FIRST TWO OPTIONS AND THEN WON A TITLE.
AS WE ALL KNOW EXCEPT KHANDOR YOU CAN SPLIT/RANK PLAYERS BY POSTION/STARTING 5/ ROTATIONS OF 8-9 MEN OR THE 3 MAIN CATEGORIES OF WINGS/BIGS AND PGS SURE THERE ARE SOME PLAYERS WHO CAN FIT INTO MORE CATEGORIES THEN ONE BUT THATS JUST A FACT OF LIFE THE REASON YOU CHOOSE NOT TO SO BE IT. YOUR TOO COOL FOR THAT (LOL) THATS FINE
YOUR QUOTE
Because a team adds a player who has been a Top Notch Performer, over the course of his career to that point in time, does not mean that his new team is going to encounter an AUTOMATIC jump up in performance, on account of his addition at that stage of his career.
Yes, it might happen.
No, it might not happen, either.
It depends on who HE IS … and, on WHO HIS TEAMMATES AND COACH, etc., are, as well
WELL OFCOURSE THAT IS TRUE HOWEVER IN THIS CASE WITH OUR NEEDS ITS CLEAR IN ANY EDUCATED BASKETBALL MIND HE WILL HELP US IN SIGNIFICANT AREAS WE NEED HELP IN (DEFECNCE, REBOUNDING, TOUGHNESS, SHOT BLOCKING, SHOT ALTERING, LANE INTIMADTION THUS MAKING US A BETTER TEAM
DO YOU UNDERSTAND KHANDOR????
IS THIS CLEAR TO YOU.
CAN I HELP YOU UNDERSTAND THIS BETTER?
MAYBE WE DID NOT TRADE FOR A QUALITY WING BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE AVAILABLE WHO WANTED A PG IN RETURN AND THIS WAS THE BEST DEAL HE COULD GET FOR TJ.
HOW MANY TEAMS WANTED TJ FORD? NOT MANY GOOD FITS FOR A GREAT WING PLAYER OF ONEALS SKILL WERE AVAILABLE FOR TJ FORD/RASHO/MID FIRST ROUND PICK?
MOST LIKELY ZERO.
GO RAPS!!!!!!!!!!!
August 12th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
CORRECTION
HOW MANY TEAMS WANTED TJ FORD? HOW MANY GOOD FITS FOR A GREAT WING PLAYER OF ONEALS SKILL WERE AVAILABLE FOR TJ FORD/RASHO/MID FIRST ROUND PICK?
MOST LIKELY ZERO.
GO RAPS!!!!!!!!!!!
August 12th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Khandor,
I meant Joe as the ideal sidekick to Bosh, but same it true for Jermaine. Same same, just different.
I’ve a few questions, you’ve grabbed by interest on your scoring options comment. I’m curious.
You mentioned that you wanted Jermaine as your number one option, then Jose, then Bosh. That surprised me.
I’ll bypass Jose for a second … why Jermaine over Bosh?
Is it just a small difference between Bosh-Jermaine as #1 to #3 scoring options or do you wish for a large difference? Difference being touches, shots or points scored, your choice.
Bosh has averaged 22ppg for three straight years. Jermaine has only averaged over 21ppg once in his career (only half a season too, due to injury). Bosh is the far more efficient scorer scoring 1.46 points per shot versus (rough estimate) 1.20 points per shot for Jermaine. Bosh also scores more easy baskets than Jermaine chiefly because he does a better job of getting to line and his drives give him several easy shots at the rim.
Is it just more touches in establishing a post game? Or do you think Jermaine will score more than Bosh, or more effectively (types of buckets), or will Jermaine’s offense help the rest of the squad more? Is it just that you like inside-out basketball?
_______________
Switching back to Calderon
I don’t think Calderon has it in his mental makeup to be a prolific scorer. He had all the opportunities in the world this past season and didn’t step up his scoring, in fact his scoring fell off (14.9 to 13.4 per 36) from last season because he was playing with the starters more often.
His game at the moment is ill-suited to being a high scorer. He doesn’t do a good job of looking for his shot off picks or drives, he’s still looking to pass at all opportunities and shoot last … which is fine but hurts him as a scoring option. Calderon would need to make a large transition in both looking for his own offense and finding the balance between that and his talents as a floor general. That’s a big learning curve.
Do you expect him to make a jump in his scoring ability next season?
Or in future seasons?
I expect him to remain fairly constant to the level he’s at now (13-15ppg). The growth in his scoring hasn’t been there and his game presently isn’t suited to it so until he proves otherwise on the basketball court I don’t expect too much additional scoring from him. If he could make that jump it would be a big help to the team.
I also think he’s a fairly poor third scoring option, especially considering the need from the two guys (big men) ahead of him. There is an onus on a perimeter player to provide more scoring to help balance the offense out and provide some diversity … which Calderon doesn’t provide at the moment. If there was an inside-out 1-2 punch (say Joe and Bosh) instead of two bigs (versus Bosh and Jermaine) Jose’s lack of scoring as a third option would be less important. It would also be less important if the two scorers were more talented/prolific or more difficult to stop/limit. It could also be less important if the fourth scoring option was better also, say a JR Smith. There’s too much of a need for that third option to score as the roster is presently constructed and I think that’ll cause problems because Jose won’t answer it.
Wide difference there …. I don’t think Jose will be a good third scorer and you think think he should be the second option ahead of Bosh …. what’s your expectations of him next season?
_________________
I was wondering if it was the same lineup as before when he discussed your preference for last season’s lineup. Whether it had changed with Jermaine on board or not.
It’s more feasible now with Jermaine, rather than Rasho, on board because scoring is less of an issue. The shooting ability (on the wings) was more important to create high quality spacing when the team didn’t have good scorers, because the Raps low quality scorers needed all the help they could get (spacing) to be effective. It’s easier to work around that with an extra 20ppg option in place. That’s the bright side.
Still I don’t think it’s their best lineup. I don’t like Jamario-Graham on the floor at the same time, I believe that would cause unnecessary offensive difficulties. Having a wing with shooting ability would create far more benefits to the squad. I also don’t appreciate Graham’s talents as you well know.
I rate Anthony Parker is the fourth best player on this team, the best wing, and a player who should be on the court in any best lineup. His contributions are more well rounded and helpful to his teammates than any other wing on the roster. Still don’t like the idea of using him out of his natural position either (as the backup point).
On Jamario Moon as a shooting guard. I agree that it’s probably he’s best position on the court, certainly defensively it would be. But getting him minutes there can be difficult with Anthony Parker around who I believe is more important than Moon and less effective defensively on SFs than Moon.
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 12th, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Shayne could you take the caps lock off please?
It makes it difficult to read your comment when whole paragraphs are in caps lock. Hard to follow.
Thank you.
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 13th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Hollywood Gino,
Thanks for providing those W-L records for the Pacers teams with/without Jermaine O’Neal.
An interesting fact would also seem to be that in 4 of those 8 actual seasons their overall winning % was actually superior when he wasn’t in their line-up …
Year With/Without
04 23-21/21-17 … 52.3/55.3 [+3.0]
03 57-21/4-0 … 73.1/100.0
02 44-33/4-1 … 57.1/80.0
00 40-41/1-0 … 49.4/100.0
[albeit with very small sample sizes in 3 of those 4 years]
and in 2 of the other seasons it was actually quite comparable
Year With/Without
07 19-23/17-23 … 45.2/42.5 [-2.7]
05 26-25/15-16 … 51.0/48.4 [-2.6]
with the vast majority of those additional Wins with O’Neal in their line-up concentrated in the remaining 2 seasons
Year With/Without
06 32-37/3-10 … 46.4/23.1 [-23.3]
01 40-32/2-8 … 55.6/20.0 [-35.6]
======================
As always …
“The proof of the pudding is (will be) in the eating.”
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 13th, 2008 at 1:43 am
Dave,
You got a lot in that in that last message.
In reverse order …
re: Moon’s best spot, as an NBA player (not this very minute BUT in the future)
We agree that it is probably at the 2-spot … which is probably something that you HAVE NEVER HEARD anyone else in the blogosphere mention before me, in all likelihood.
(interesting that some, like RBS, consider having a minority opinion to be a bad thing in this world in which we live)
As you’ve identified correctly, the major impediment to Moon’s development at this spot for the Raptors is … the presence and perception of one Anthony Parker on the current roster …
which brings us to point #2 …
re: Anthony Parker as a Back-up player for a high calibre team
Parker at the 2-spot means that his team will ALWAYS lose the key individual match in a playoff game vs an opponent with a high calibre wing player, e.g. Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, Outlaw/Roy/Webster, Carter, Jefferson, Butler, Lewis, Stackhouse, etc.
And, I mean ALWAYS … in any type of important game.
Parker is a solid role playing wing player, in the NBA.
But … physically … he is simply not a high quality multi-dimensional player, at the 2-spot, and neither is he capable of becoming a one-dimensional lock-down Wing defender … unlike, say, a Bruce Bowen is, for example, or as I would hope to see one day from a still developing Moon/Graham combo.
Put him at the Point, though, and SHIFT him into a back-up role off the bench, at the #2 … and, he becomes much more than adequate … for example, in comparison to someone like Jacques Vaughn (at the low end), or even Jordan Farmar (at the high end).
What this SHIFT would also do is create an opening for Moon to develop as a legit 2-man for this Raptors team.
re: Calderon as a #2 Scoring Option for this team behind O’Neal as the No. 1
IMO … knowing how elite level players, like Jose Calderon, react when a team makes a commitment to him by trading a player like TJ Ford, you will a slightly different player beginning next season when ‘Numero 8′ is in the game for 30+ (MP), on an everyday basis for an entire season.
Not a gigantic change; just a slight but important one.
Jose will never be a volume shooter/scorer in the NBA. You are correct, that is not his individual make-up.
BUT … that is not to say HE CAN/WILL NOT develop into a consistent 13-18 PPG scorer … IF HE PLAYS WITH A LEGIT INSIDE OUT POST PLAYER, like O’Neal has been on occasion, in the past, and how Bosh is capable of becoming, if he focuses his energy on developing his Low-Post, Reverse Pivot and then Attack game (which, BTW, I would prefer he NOT do, since this is NOT his ‘greatest’ strength as a contributing player to a championship calibre team, in the NBA, IMO … which is not to say that it cannot be A strength of his overall game, only that it isn’t THE strength of this young man’s total game).
IF Sam Mitchell plays with a highly structured Set Offense … which is what he SHOULD do with the players on this Raptors team … Jose Calderon will be the recipient of numerous wide-open inside/out kick-outs for perimeter J-shots, that he WILL HAVE TO TAKE whether or not he wants to … ala Tony Parker … which he will learn to shoot willingly, as his overall shooting percentage continues to climb.
Do I like an inside-out Post dominant attack in the NBA?
Yes and NO.
With the personnel on this team … it’s THE way to go, IMO, because it will work the best.
In general … I’m a big proponent of that which actually works the best … for a specific team.
At 13-18 PPG, Jose Calderon could be a legit No. 2 Scoring Option for this Raptors team … with O’Neal at 20-23 PPG and Bosh at 13-18 PPG, as well.
If Kapono was to also elevate his scoring numbers to a level just below that same range … say, 10-15 PPG … that would shift the offensive focus of this team OFF of Chris Bosh and Anthony Parker, where it’s been the last two seasons, IMO … but still leave the team with enough points from its top 4 scorers to produce a solid contending team in the Eastern Conference this season … a far cry from No. 2 Overall, but a legit contender to finish in the #3-5 spots, once again.
i.e. 20-23 + 13-18 + 13-15 + 10=15 = 56 Pts on the Low End; and, 71 Pts on the high end.
In addition … there is no one else in the NBA who can turn the corner when using a simple pick from a Big AND finish at the hoop with an EASY-AS-APPLE-PIE extended righ-hand lay-up in comparison to Jose Manuel Calderon.
[Note: Nash & Paul are better at making the spectacular play (either dish or finish) when coming off the simple 4/5 pick, to be sure ... but, they are NOT better than Jose at producing a cup-cake, exceptionally high percentage PG lay-up/deuce. Now that TJ Ford is gone ... he should be able to do an even better job of this, given the extra PT he is going to be getting per game.]
re: Jermaine O’Neal as the point of offensive focus for this team and NOT Chris Bosh
When I evaluate individual players, in individual games, and on an individual possession basis within specific games … using my own techniques … the games in which Chris Bosh plays the best AND the Raptors team WINS those games are the ones in which he focuses his attention on REBOUNDING & TEAM DEFENSE (which is not the same thing as simply stopping his own check from scoring … as The Great Bill Russell taught us about, ‘How the Game of NBA Hoops actually Works’, years and years ago … and Kevin Garnett re-established for the dis-believers this past season) …. not on scoring himself.
When Chris Bosh blocks shots and rebounds, in high numbers … he becomes a totally different beast on the basketball court, in comparison with the times he scores a lot of Points.
Now, do I have a slew of game stats to verify my own personal opinions/techniques for my evaluation of Chris Bosh? … No I do not.
As I’ve already told RBS … I do not value simple game stats, like many others do in the blogosphere … including such new-age gurus, like Dean Oliver, or Kevin Pelton, or Kevin Broom, or David Berri, etc. … whether they realize it or, they too are using simple game stats in their current analysis of the NBA game.
When I look at O’Neal + Bosh together … I do not see Bosh as the leading scorer & O’Neal as the No. 2, for a smoothely running team … I see it in reverse … and, for this particular team, with Bosh as the No. 3 scorer, behind Calderon, as well, although not by a lot of points.
[IMO, with the make-up of this team ... YES, indeed, it would most definitely distribute the scoring more equitably between the perimeter and the interior players on the court together, especially if the other two players are going to be primarily role playing defenders/rebounders, as well.]
Do I like O’Neal’s offensive game on the Low Block, right now, better than I do Bosh’s?
Yes, I do.
Which is part of the vision I see for this current team.
=====================
The Wildcard in this entire mix … IMO … is going to be Bargnani.
If HE is put in a role which sees him SHOOTING a high number of shots per game, in addition to the shot numbers put up by either O’Neal OR Bosh, whichever one becomes the offensive focal point … THEN the other one is NOT going to be getting enough shots to maintain his previous scoring levels in the NBA.
How is Mitchellangelo going to use Andrea Bargnani, as the 3rd wheel, in the Raptors 3-Bigs rotation?
IMO, that’s the guy who can eat up the shots that SHOULD be going to Calderon, or one of Bosh/O’Neal.
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 13th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Khandor,
Why have Bosh sacrifice his scoring and concentrate on the defensive/rebounding duties and not Jermaine O Neal?
Jermaine is the far superior defensive player and comparable (slightly better) rebounder.
___________________
Biggest problem for Kapono will be minutes. If he gets 26-28 minutes a game he’ll be a double digit scorer. If he gets 33-35 minutes he could be a 13-15ppg scorer. He doesn’t deserve any more minutes than he’s currently receiving (19mpg) because his contributions are too one-dimensional and he doesn’t score at a high enough clip to work around that fact.
Kapono took a similar number of shots (slightly more) per 36 minutes as he did in Miami. His scoring was around Calderon’s clip per 36. His scoring dropped from Miami to Toronto because he took less three pointers and played away from greatest strength and his overall shooting dropped accordingly.
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Bargnani is a huge swing factor for this team. If he can back to the basketball he was playing in the second half of his rookie season he’ll be very valuable, if it’s last season all over again the bench will be a non-story. Bargnani is the guy who’ll likely make or break the Raptors bench. If he can play at a high level he’ll allow everyone else to fall into roles with better suit them.
Bargnani was dropping 15 and 5.6 in 30 minutes after the All-Star break his rookie year.
Biggest thing with Bargnani seems to be shooting efficiency. He takes the same number of shots regardless. Similar number per 36 during each half of his rookie season, and similar number of shots from rookie season to second season.
_____________________
Anthony Parker is the Raps’ Michael Finley of the team. A better version of Finley too …. because of superior shooting, scoring, more scoring versatility, far more efficient, intelligence, passing, defense. They’re also comparable rebounders.
Parker shouldn’t be compared to Bruce Bowen. That’s not his role on this team. That’s Moon’s role - Bowen also superior at shooting guard than small forward. Parker is the Finley of the squad, the fourth option. He’s not the stopper.
Although if he could regain his defense from a season ago he’d most definitely be the stopper, both the stopper and the fourth option. I haven’t given up on that possibility either, it’s an achievable possibility.
_______________________
You said you’d like to see Bosh sacrifice some of his offense. Do you expect to see something like that? A large drop in his scoring I mean?
Daves last blog post..Gordon’s Dilemma
August 13th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Dave,
No I do not expect to see Bosh’s scoring totals drop with this year’s team.
I do not believe that Mitchellangelo sees CB4 the same way that I do.
(in fact, I’m not sure that anyone sees CB4 the exact same way that I do)
===================================
Bosh is not an interior scorer … the way the Raptors choose to use him.
Comparatively … O’Neal is an interior scorer … the way he has been used in Indiana, over the years. Might not be the way he likes the most, or the way in which he COULD have been the most effective BUT it is THE way he has been used by that team.
Human Energy is a FINITE thing.
The enrgy a player devotes to Scoring is energy he cannot devote to Rebounding.
IMO … when CB4 devotes his energy to REBOUNDING he becomes a different beast entirely AND his team becomes a different team, as well.
Conversely, in the times I have watched Jermaine O’Neal play over the course of his career, I have NOT seen a similar transformation occur if/when he focuses his energy, exclusively, on REBOUNDING … i.e. he does not become a differnce beast entirely and neither does his team.
Hence the reason for Bosh to focus on REBOUNDING and for O’Neal to focus on Scoring … even though the historical number crunching might say that each man is best suited to emphasize the other’s job, in the scenario I am developing for you to consider.
Recall … I specialize in minority-based, out-of-the-box thinking/probelm solving.
=========================================================
You’re right, Moon is in the Bowen role with this team right now … and I think that’s a key mistake the Raptors are making cause the rest of the players on this team are NOT similar to those on the Spurs … i.e. Anthony Parker is NOT the same player as Michael Finley.
NOT by a long stretch. In rotisserie/fantasy numbers, perhaps.
I’m not talking about playing make-believe.
When you line up Michael Finley vs Anthony Parker … real-life on a basketball court, in the NBA, there’s a real, ‘physical’ and ‘psychological’ difference between the two players.
Anthony Parker 6-6, 215, Bradley U., 5 years in the NBA
Michael Finley 6-7, 225, Wisconsin U. (former NCAA player of the Year Candidate), 13 years in the NBA (World Champion/Spurs), one-time leading scorer for the Dallas Mavericks
There’s a DIFFERENCE.
(i.e. Like the DIFFERENCE between Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett & Jermaine O’Neal)
=========================================================
You’re correct … Anthony Parker SHOUL NOT be compared to Bruce Bowen.
I never did that.
Jose Calderon can be compared to Tony Parker.
Anthony Parker NEEDS to be shifted into a permanent Back-up Role, at the OG/PG spot, for a quality NBA team … ala Brent Barry (6-7 210), for example, with the Spurs.
Hopefully you can see the DIFFERENCE.
[I have no doubt whatsoever that a quality head coach, like Gregg Popovich, would have been able to see this about Anthony Parker, as he did with Bent Barry. NOTE: There's a reason Manu Ginobili was acquired by the Spurs and nobody else; and, that Bruce Bowen was able to find success with the Spurs, after kicking around the basketball world in a series of B leagues. POP knows the h*ll what he's doing. Doesn't mean he's PERFECT; not by a long stretch. But he definitely knows what he's doing there.]
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Biggest problem for Kapono … is NOT having D-Wade on his team any more … not the absence of a Shaq.
In a drive & kick game, without any set plays, Kapono needs a D-Wade beside him to create openings, from perimeter drives to the hoop, in order to free him for his ‘money-ball’ shots.
Kick it in and out to Shaq, alone, doesn’t nearly help Kapono as much.
It’s a subtle difference but, again … IT IS a DIFFERENCE, to be sure.
If he doesn’t have D-Wade beside him … then what Kapono needs, as an effective alternative, is a Low Post presence like Jermaine O’Neal (who isn’t terrific down there but who is better than CB4) AND a series of well-crafted 2-Guard/Reggie Miller plays designed to create open perimeter shots for him as he’s moving AWAY from the basket (not towards it or standing still), ‘catching & shooting’, after being on the move.
IMO, like the Sundance Kid … he’s a much better ‘Shooter’ when he’s on the move … i.e. do not let the ‘NBA 3-PT Shooting Contest’ stuff fool you.
========================================================
Anyway … that is some of what I know about the game.
You (and others) can choose to accept it, if you wish; or, to reject it outright.
It’s really quite irrelevant to me.
As you’ve said before, and I agree with … Time Will Tell All, down-the-road.
Got to hit the road for now.
Ciao
khandors last blog post..Soulsville USA
August 13th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Sorry …
Forgot all about Bargnani.
Andrea has a fundamental flaw (or two?) in his shooting stroke that needs to be fixed.
If it is … he will fulfill his potential, as a one-dimensional, extremely functional BUT not an NBA superstar type player for years to come in this league.
It would take someone who really knows what he’s doing a matter of days to do this for him … after first gaining his trust/confidence … and get Bargnani back on track.
The kid was absolutely lost last season.
Trick is … to find the right man for the job.
[BTW, from what I know, Gordie Herbert is not that guy.]
Ciao
August 13th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Khandor,
Why do you think Michael Finley is superior to Anthony Parker?
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 13th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
he was a superior player, not so much now. from what i saw, the two of them shoot the ball at a reasonably equal clip, but parker is a bit more agile on his feet, and seems to play better man defense on the wing.
August 13th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Anthony Parker is actually a vastly superior shooter.
Parker FG% = 47.6% - 3FG% 43.4% - TS% 58%
Finley FG% = 41.4% - 3FG% 37.0% - TS% 51.9%
This is with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Tim Duncan feeding Finley open shot after open shot.
Parker scored 1.24 points per shot versus the 1.08 points per shot Finley scored. Finley scored 10ppg in 27 minutes while taking 9.3 shots. Parker scored 12.5ppg in 32 minutes which is a better clip and did it on 10.1 shots. Finley took more shots and scored less points per 36 minutes.
Parker also scored the ball in more ways which is partially shown by the 18% of his points coming from inside the paint versus only 7% for Finley showing just how utterly reliant Finley was on his jump shot.
The Spurs would have been a much more dangerous team had Parker and Finley switched places this past season. They would have been better on both sides of the court. There is literally nothing that Finley does better than Parker.
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 10:31 am
re: comparing Anthony Parker and Michael Finley
Using Rotisserie/Fantasy stats, in isolation, to define as player’s worth is of little relevance to me.
Here are two sets of Career Averages.
You can decide for yourself:
i) Which one belongs to Anthony Parker and which is Michael Finley’s; and,
ii) Which set is the player’s you’d prefer to have on your Fantasy team.
GP GS MPG FG% 3FG% FT% ORB DRB RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
210 155 26.0 0.472 0.425 0.812 0.6 2.6 3.2 1.7 0.8 0.1 0.86 1.50 9.8
976 791 35.8 0.444 0.371 0.813 1.1 3.5 4.6 3.2 1.0 0.3 1.59 1.70 16.7
Suffice to say that … although, statistically, Anthony Parker performed better than Michael Finley during the 2007-2008 season; Anthony Parker, may not (in fact) be a better basketball player than Michael Finley.
Click this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij8cxAHQYhA
Go to the 1:55 mark.
Now, which player do you think a high calibre head coach, like Gregg Popovich, would choose to shoot THAT shot, right there … given the time, score and pressure situation … for his team, in an NBA playoff game against the Phoenix Suns?
Anthony Parker? Or, Michael Finley?
I am not going to try and change anybody’s mind about which of these two players is (in fact) the superior athlete, shooter, defender, rebounder, assist-maker, steal-maker, shot-blocker, pressure-performer, etc.
You are each entitled to your own opinion.
I have mine.
And, I think a high calibre NBA coach, like Gregg Popovich has his.
=====================
“The proof of the pudding is (always) in the eating.”
khandors last blog post..Pistons stay the course … with a new head coach
August 14th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Pop would choose Parker to take that shot. Again Parker’s better shooting as shown up in pressure situations all season (clutch stats at 82games) where he has an eFG% of 53% versus the 48% that Finley has shot.
Finley’s previous years as an All-Star caliber player have nothing to do with his present condition. That was 6 years ago and he’s been fairly similar for the past 3 seasons, although he declined considerably this past year.
There isn’t a shadow of doubt that Anthony Parker is a superior player to Michael Finley. There is literally nothing that Finley does better on the basketball court. The Spurs would been a better side if they had of had Parker instead of Finley.
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Dave,
A while back, phdsteve, tried to claim that Yao Ming is a better Center/player than Andrew Bynum is and that Phil Jackson would choose Yao over Bynum, as the Center for his team, if given the choice … beyond a shadow of a doubt.
I think you agreed with phdsteve.
The informal poll results can be found here.
http://khandorssportsblog.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/yao-ming-or-andrew-bynum-part-ii-the-call-2/
Would you like me to do the same for you, in this instance? [re: AP & MF]
Just say the word, and we can do it … not that the results are going to change your current way of thinking, or mine.
You have your opinion … and, I have mine.
We can simply agree to disagree, and move forward.
khandors last blog post..Oceanside smorgasboard in Lalaland
August 14th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Khandor,
I have no earthly idea how you’ve arrived at your conclusion that Finley is a better player. There’s nothing he does better than Parker. If there was a few things he did better and you valued them highly fine but that doesn’t exist. You haven’t been able to explain your reasons why Finley is a superior player. Finley is a one-dimensional player who’s skills in those areas (scoring/shooting) are surpassed by Parker and Parker has a more well rounded game (especially defense) in addition to that.
You can write the post if you wish but I doubt you get enough replies to make it worthwhile.
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Kahndor, you’ve left me flabbergasted and befuddled by your rating of Finley over Parker
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Dave,
Even though Michael Finley is definitely on the decline (statistically), as a ‘real live’ basketball player, in the NBA, he is still:
taller
heavier
more athletic (explosive power)
a better rebounder
a better passer
a better stealer of the ball
a better shot blocker
able to defend ‘bigger’ players on the Block
able to match-up on D (’physically’) vs Kobe/Pierce/et al., if need be
able to draw/keep his defender glued to him in a spot-up situation
able to convert his pressure FT’s
able to convert his pressure J-shots
a bigger threat in his opponents’ collective mind
than is Anthony Parker.
In other words …
Anthony Parker is to Michael Finley as …
As Vince Carter is to Michael Jordan, today.
One is very good, right now.
The other was even better, in his heyday.
Still, in a ‘one play’ playoff … 1 hour from now … I know which one I want on MY team, in a 5-on-5 situation, if my own life was at stake, depending on the outcome of that single possession.
Even, at his advanced age … ONE of these Men is a Warrior and one of them is not … both, in the mind & hearts on his teammates and his opponents … with no slight intended, whatsoever, to any of these 4 men.
[Statistically, Anthony Parker is a better 3-PT Shooter; but, that's all.]
khandors last blog post..Cavaliers: one step forward, one step back
August 14th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
I’m very surprised by your evaluations of Finley. Everyone I’ve talked to about Finley concurs that he’s finished as a 20 minute player in the NBA and that is horrible showing in the playoffs was one of the biggest problems for the Spurs. Shocked I say!
Finley doesn’t have a size advantage because it doesn’t materialize in any way shape or form. Just the sight of Bonzi Wells was enough for Pop to pull Finley off the court. Finley can’t defend physical players or wings in the post. He’s very bad at it. Ime Udoka, who’s smaller and lighter than Finley, is the Spurs best wing post defender. Better than Bowen too. One of the Spurs biggest weaknesses over the past few years has been their ability to defend wings in the post and Finley’s inability to do is a big reason why. Parker is a better post defender than Finley, he holds his position better.
Finley also struggles on perimeter players that run him through screens. He can’t keep up with players like Kevin Martin. He also struggles with quick agile penetrators who take him off the dribble easily from the perimeter. Again Parker is better defensively against both types of wings.
Finley is also the Spurs player who is most regularly caught out of position or missing the correct rotation. Parker is a better thief and there’s no difference in blocks.
Statistically the Spurs defense was three points better with Finley off the court rather than on the court. That’s with Finley playing the vast majority of his time next to the best Spurs defenders which is more damning again. There really should be that much of a difference on that good of a defensive team while playing most of his minutes next to their best defensive players.
They’re comparable rebounders actually averaging the same number of boards.
The Spurs always have Finley on the worst wing in the game and Pop regularly pulls him when two dangerous wings are on the court. According to opposing PER Parker actually out-rebounds his man while at SG, while Finley does not, both are out-rebounded at SF but the difference is smaller for Parker.
Finley’s size doesn’t do him any good offensively either since he doesn’t score in the paint and makes a lower percentage of his jump shots.
There’s no advantage from his larger size. Finley isn’t more explosive either.
………………………
What’s even harder to believe is that you think Anthony Parker can play the backup point guard but that he’s a worse passer than Finley despite Finley even his hayday being regarded as a below par passer. Parker averages more assists and they’ve a comparable assist turnover ratio which is shocking, Finley’s should be better considering how few touches he has in difficult situations. Parker also has better recognition on what is happening on the court and better vision.
We’ve already covered the better shooting and scoring. Parker is also better coming off of screens and both players get about as many plays called as the other, Finley probably more so. Pop loves to call that curl screen for Finley early in third quarters to get Finley going.
_______________________
I’m very surprised by your evaluations of Finley. Like I said at the top, everyone I talk to about Finley concurs that he’s finished as a 20 minute player in the NBA and that his horrible showing in the playoffs was one of the biggest problems for the Spurs. Many of those who think he’s finished as a 20 minute player think he’s finished altogether and shouldn’t be in an NBA rotation anymore, not even as a 10 minute guy, but a Darrick Martin like figure that keeps the bench warm.
Parker is the vastly superior basketball player. I’m surprised by how lowly you regard him.
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
dave, i still think finley has value in the league. 10-14 minutes sounds about right for him. in reference to his playoff performance, he didn’t play his best ball, but if ginobili was healthy, i feel the conersation about finley may be different right now.
is he a 20min peak performer? no, but he definitely adds to the team.
i think i would take parker over him, maybe khandor can organize another poll to get to the bottom of this debate.
August 14th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I don’t think Finley should be in the rotation for a contender anymore. For a lower playoff team he could be a good secondary backup on the wing (that 10-14 minute type role) …. or perhaps a primary backup if they have good bench options in the backcourt and up front. Otherwise he’s likely to disappoint. He still has enough about him to contribute in either of those situations. He shouldn’t be on a contender though, he’ll be a weakness there.
I’m not surprised by how little interest has been shown in Finley this summer.
I am however surprised by the Spurs not making it their first priority to replace him in the lineup. I think that’s something they’re to regret at the end of next season. They need that fourth scorer and player to start next to Bowen. They don’t have that replacement on their bench and bringing Finley back won’t be good enough to get the job done.
Finley is rumoured to have a vet’s minimum contract offer on the table from San An. Although that was awhile ago now and he still hasn’t signed so maybe that isn’t accurate, it’s very difficult to picture him getting a better offer elsewhere.
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
Dave,
Hard to respond effectively in this format when you put that much solid info in your message.
Not a complaint; just stating a fact.
Easier to go one point at a time. Or, to take just one point … look at it from a different perspective and then compare notes, again.
How about we start with the latter option? Ok.
This is what you said, above, re: Finley’s height advantage not being relevant.
“Finley’s size doesn’t do him any good offensively either since he doesn’t score in the paint and makes a lower percentage of his jump shots.”
Finley’s size would do him good, on the Block, in a match-up vs Anthony Parker. So, too, would it allow him to get his “low-percentage” J-shot off, if he is being defended by Anthony Parker.
One of the big mistakes Pop made in the Series Loss vs the Lakers was his UNFOUNDED confidence and inappropriate use of Ima Udoka, as what he thought he was his primary defender versus Big Wings with good size & strength. If Pop changed nothing else from that Series except for how he used Udoka … when he SHOULD NOT have used Udoka, the Spurs … in spite of Manu’s injury woes … may well have triumphed over the Lakers.
I am not surprised, at all, that all those you’ve spoken with to this point believe that Michael Finley is through, as a useful player, in the NBA.
That may well be the case, but it will be because of his salary, not on account of his ability, as a basketball player, just yet.
Overall, I do NOT have a low opinion of Anthony Parker.
Parker is a solid NBA player.
He’s just not as good as a properly used Michael Finley.
[and, please recall ... contrary to the brush one RBS tried to paint me with ... Average Seasonal Statistics are of little value to me when evaluating the ability of individual NBA players accurately]
khandors last blog post..Cavaliers: one step forward, one step back
August 14th, 2008 at 6:20 pm
Okay we’ve flogged that one to death Khandor. I think we’re done.
I disagree with the entirety of your last comment on Finley. About Finley being mis-used, his post game, and also Udoka being mis-used … and also that his salary is the reason he’s done when he’s likely only getting the minimum next season.
… Next Topic!
Daves last blog post..Three Way Trade: Mo to Cleveland
August 14th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Dave,
Moving forward, then, let me leave you with these two thoughts, looking to the future.
An NBA team will not win a League Championship:
i) With Ima Udoka as it’s Big Guard-Wing/Small Big Defender.
Ima Udoka is not good enough to get the job done, in this role.
ii) With Anthony Parker as a Starting Guard or Forward.
Anthony Parker is not good enough to get the job done, in this role.
khandors last blog post..Cavaliers: one step forward, one step back
August 16th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Seems as though, Gregg Popovich & RC Bufurd … plus men like Danny Ainge (yippee!), Jeff Bower (yippee!), and Danny Ferry (yikes!) … still think that Michael Finley can play just a little bit for a legit contending team in the NBA.
“The proof of the pudding is [always] in the eating.”
khandors last blog post..Chris Bosh should be starting for Team USA
August 16th, 2008 at 10:03 am
Oh, yeah … almost forgot, completely.
Here you go:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3537371
Enjoy.
khandors last blog post..Chris Bosh should be starting for Team USA
August 26th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
wow…very very bold of you to make predictions this early.
kudos for the strong opinion, but we have no idea what each team will look like this season (ie. who will be the next boston, new orleans, or miami?)
personally, i have the raps pegged around the bottom half of playoff seeding, hovering around 43 wins…