no really…TRADE BOSH NOW!
Now wait, before any of you panic, close this blog and write me off as crazy…listen to what I have to say:
First off, I love Bosh - think he’s awesome and the core of this franchise - BUT I don’t think he can win a title all by himself (after all neither could KG - and neither can Kobe). And after seeing him disappear in 2 straight playoffs and letting his team get their buts kicked by a lack of intensity and scoring, I’m open to the idea of reshuffling the deck in order to put the best team on the court in October. And lets face it, trading Bosh could fill a lot of holes in this Raptors roster - thinking of it as trading an Ace for a pair of kings ( or heck, even three 10s).
This team is further away from contending than just one player and with the buyout of Garbo coming and 1 of the point guards leaving, it becomes apparent that the Raps need to fill several holes in order to really contend in the East with the big dogs like Boston, Detroit, and even teams like Cleveland and Orlando.
So after reading all over the internet about just how much Carmelo Anthony, Richard Jefferson, or Shawn Marion might be worth in a trade, here’s a crazy idea: how much do you think a team might pay for a 24 year 2 time all star and top 5 power forward in the league. Me thinks its pretty darn high, especially in a summer when sooo many teams are looking to make deals.
The truth is BC doesn’t have the Cahones to trade Bosh, in fact, he’s never traded anyone risky- sure he traded Marbury, Joe Johnson, and Jkidd, but one was a whiner, one was a beater, and the other signed a contract with ATL and forced his hand…and in retrospect he lost all of those trades. Small trades- Colangelo can make - and is king - like Araujo for Humphries- but big trades- cant see him doing it.
If the Raps were to make 3 moves- one : trade Bosh, two: trade Calderon, and three: bring in a new coach- this team could win 60 games and the East next year. After all, who has more trade value in the NBA right now than Bosh and Calderon? You can keep TJ and start him (after all he had a PER over 20 last year, which is all star numbers), you can move Bargnani to the 4, which is his natural position and find out what the #1 overall pick is really worth- and then you can bring in all the gold that bosh and Calderon would attract in the open market. Add this to a proven coach, like a Jeff Van Gundy, Avery Johnson, or (sigh- dare I say it-) Flip Saunders and you have team who has to be viewed as a legitimate championship contender.
Carazy? Fuck yeah! But you know what..why not. Teams need to take chances to win. And lets face it, the old way of doing it, just isn’t working.
So, here are 3 crazy deals for Bosh and Calderon that work for both teams and are sure to get the internet rumour mills going (and that work salary cap wise)
#1 - Miami and Toronto:
To the Raps:
Marion
The #2 pick
And Udonis Haslem
To the Heat:
Bosh
Calderon (sign and trade)
And Anthony Parker
Raps starting five:
Rasho
Bargnani/Haslem
Matrix
OJ Mayo/Derrick Rose (whomever you draft with the #2)
TJ Ford
#2 - Chicago and Toronto
To the Raps:
Deng (sign and trade)
The #1 pick
Noah
To the Bulls:
Bosh
#17
Jamario Moon
Raps starting five:
Rasho/Noah
Bargnani
Deng
Derrick Rose (who you draft with the #1)
TJ Ford
AND you still get to trade Calderon for more pieces.
#3 - Denver and Toronto:
To the Raps:
Melo
Camby
To the Nuggets:
Bosh
Calderon
Raps starting five:
Camby
Bargnani
Melo
CDR who you draft with #17 or whomever you trade Rasho’s expiring contract for
TJ Ford
#4 - Detroit and Toronto
To the Raps:
Prince
Wallace
#29 pick
To the Pistons:
Bosh
Rasho
Parker
Raps starting five:
Wallace
Bargnani
Prince
whomever you trade Calderon for
TJ Ford
See what I mean. You could play this game all day long. The truth is…if you wanted to trade BOTH Calderon and Bosh - you could build a pretty darn solid team.
As always, standing in the key, I’m the doctor, I got my feet planted and I’m planning on taking a charge.
Phdsteve (with help from the Hollywood Gino)
Technorati Tags: Andrea Bargnani, Anthony Parker, Avery Johnson, Bryan Colangelo, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh, Derrick Rose, Flip Saunders, Jamario Moon, Jason Kidd, Jeff Van Gundy, Joakim Noak, Joe Johnson, Jorge Garbajosa, Jose Calderon, Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Kris Humphries, Luol Deng, Marcus Camby, OJ Mayo, Rafael Araujo, Rasheed Wallace, Rasho Nesterovic, Richard Jefferson, Shawn Marion, Stephon Marbury, Tayshaun Prince, TJ Ford, Udonis Haslem
June 16th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
trading bosh is an interesting proposal. you either have to give him a solid team, and contend, or he will walk, or force a trade. either way, the big question his time frame for winning is. i personally vote for the wallace/prince trade. bring in some tough players who make plays. melo is by far the most intriguing player in the list, but he’s a huge gamble. never know when he will get booked for something serious.
June 16th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
I’m a +1 here as well.
I’m a huge Melo fan (really because I’m a huge Syracuse fan), but I don’t want him here. As RapsFan says, a wee bit of a gamble. That said, I wonder if he would change given the laidback Toronto atmosphere and the fact that basketball isn’t the #1 sport.
Love the Miami idea. Add the #2 and rent Marion for a year??? Where do I sign? Not sure Miami goes for it, though, BUT Riley is a big Bosh fan…
It would hurt to see him go, but you bring up a valid strong argument.
Great post.
AltRapss last blog post..Best Raptor Ever – 17th Bracket
June 16th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
what is interesting about # 1 is that resigning marion wouldn’t cost more then 8-9mill per, which is reasonable, and doesn’t kill the cap. the trade is only really exciting if you get beasley, don’t need another pg in the mix in tdot.
June 16th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
I personally feel that if the Raps don’t make a serious run in this next season that Bosh walks when his time comes in a few years. He needs to see some progress to stay here.
Although I am a huge Bosh Fan, I think trdaing him would be the best option, especially when you could package him with Forderon and bring back multiple pieces and a high pick.
I think the trade with Miami has the most potential for Raps
June 16th, 2008 at 4:53 pm
One more trade to speculate.
Clippers and Raptors
To the Clippers:
Bosh
Calderon (sign and trade)
Parker
Baston
#17 Pick
To the Raps:
Brand
Maggette (sign and trade)
# 6 Pick (if you could swing it)
I think the Clips would do this deal because there is rumblings that Brand is very tired of losing and is planning to walk after this next season. The Clips in fear of this might trade him for a locked up Bosh and Calderon, while getting value for Maggette who is wlaking anyway.
The Raps starting 5 would then be:
Rasho/Brezec
Brand/Bargnani
Moon/Kapono/#6 Pick
Maggette/Delfino
Ford/Ukic
Its so much fun to dream big….
June 16th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
The only trade i ee making us any better is the chicago one, all the others are poop.
June 16th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
lol@justin
gino, if moon is our starting 3 next year, i might kill someone…seriously.
brand’s injury makes me nervous. bosh is relatively injury free…he is a doof pansy, but he hasn’t missed an entire season yet.
June 16th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
Dear Raps Fan,
I also dont like the idea of starting moon either….I would be the first to agree with you and phd Steve that moon should never start another game in a raps uniform and should have a finger cut off for every 3 pointer he attempts, but we all know SMitch loves Moon…I wonder if moon has naked pictures of Smitch…..
If the trade goes through (which it obviously wont) then the Raps can trade some expiring contracts for a small forward or move Maggette over to 3. The possibilities are there. Trust me…moon is not my first option, hopefully whoever would be drafted at 6 would fill that void, but i am convinced that as long as Smitch coaches the raps, moon starts.
As for Bosh, we should all remember that Bosh is also not injury free, his knees have given him problems the last few years and I would be surprised if he makes a full season without injury next year. Bosh has missed at least 12 games the last 3 seasons. Although not huge losses, we all know how well the raps play without him. With the exception of last year, Brand has played almost 80 games a season each of the past 3 years. Brand is also just 29.
I would concede they are both injury crapshoots, Brand more than Bosh. It would be tough to lose Bosh but I feel that we are going to lose him anyway, we should trade now while the value is still high.
June 16th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
i’m pretty sure bosh has some conditioning issues. he labours in games far more then i would like for a young guy. it is actually pretty bad when you watch guys like pierce, allen, kobe run around the floor like champs, and all bosh does is operate inside 16 feet.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
Bosh runs very well for a big guy but I think your right in the conditioning issue. He was not made to play 44 minutes a game. give him 35 or so and let Hump take some of the load with his hustle. That being said, its hard to be conditioned when you start the last two seasons with knee injuries. AND while he is playing for Team USA in the summer, anything could happen. He might show up in great shape or injure himself and start slow again.
June 16th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
All these trades remind me of my fantasy league. BOsh does have high trade value but the guy committed to TO and if we brings players in to support him then we can move towards a championship.
out of all these trades I think the Melo one is the only one that is good for both squads. I would substitute Nene for Camby and Ford for Calderon though.
Calderon/Parker/Anthony/Nene/Rasho
the raps would have Moon, Bargs, Kapono and #17 pick coming off the bench and hopefully Roko.
Ford/AI/Smith/Bosh/Camby
I’m not too sure about your conditioning point on Bosh Rapsfan. You compare him to 3 sg’s who dont have to crash the boards with the biggest and strongest PF in the NBA. the guy averaged 36+ mpg this year with not a lot of talent to help him out.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
well garnett, howard, odom, mcdyess, gasol, boozer, west all play more minutes then him. that’s apples to apples, no?
June 16th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
master,
no way Denver makes a deal that puts both AI and TJ in the same backcourt- since neither is 6 feet tall.
and you are not alone in your desire to keep Bosh here. Im sure every blogger so far would agree with you BUT…(and thats the point of the article)
and Hollywood- its not just the knees but the placitar facitlisgar035-r? (even with my Phd I cant spell that foot injury’s name), which has been known to end a few careers.
June 16th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Wow … that’s thinking outside of the box. Some interesting suggestions and ideas.
I’d be very reluctant to trade Chris Bosh. He’s a proven big man in the NBA. A player who performs at an All-NBA level (2nd team last year, should have been on the 3rd team this year). That’s an incredibly high level of performance that’s very difficult to replace. Add in his age being only 24 years old and I’m even more reluctant. Add in the fact he’s a 6-11 big man and I’m more reluctant again. So I’m reluctant, it would take one heck of an offer.
The only player in the draft I’d be remotely willing to consider giving Bosh up for is Derrick Rose. Since TJ and Calderon are the two next best players on the roster that’s not making a huge help to the side but he’d be a nice player to build a future team around.
As for Bosh potentially leaving Toronto - I wouldn’t be worried about that. He has another 3 years on his contract. The current CBA offers a huge amount of advantages to the holding team by allowing that team to offer an extra year on a guarenteed contract and also larger increases each season. All in all Bosh would have to leave about 20mil on the table to leave Toronto for another team. That’s a huge risk and a big reason we haven’t seen many players established max-contract players leaving their teams in recent years.
Daves last blog post..NBA Finals Thoughts: PJ Brown On KG’s Practice Ways
June 17th, 2008 at 9:07 am
agreed Dave- it would take one heck of an offer - but I think there are several teams who might be willing to “pony up.” Add that to a Calderon trade and I think you culd turn this team into a real contender pretty quick.
you are right that the “home” team has a lot of advantages to resigning max players under the CBA, BUT as we have seen more and more over the last 3 years (ie. Cassels, Posey, Berry, Hill etc) a lot of guys are willing to take the vets minimum to play on a championship contending team. now obviously Bosh is in a different category- he’s a superstar, not an aging vet- BUT- what if LA or CLE was to throw crazy money at him? Do you think he’d rather make 17 mil and play for 6 years next to Kobe or Lebron- or make 20 mil and play next to Rasho and Garbo? You are right, but come 2010 when Bosh, LeBron, and Dwade can all opt out of their existing contracts, there are going to be some serious changes in the NBA. Lots of teams, like the Knicks, Nets, Heat, Pistons and Mavs are all poised to have a ton of cap space for that year and are positioning themselves for even more! If nothing changes, by 2010, Bosh will have spent 6 losing seasons in Toronto, with less than 4 playoff victories to show for it, under at least 3 GMS and 4 coaches, with no real superstar help other than a tuned-out VC at the end of his Toronto days, and made over 50 million dollars in Toronto. At that point, I think he would have to seriously consider taking max contract at roughly 16 million for a team that could contend for a title for the ENTIRE contract in an organization dedicated to winning…after all…wouldn’t you?
June 17th, 2008 at 9:47 am
steve, i’m not sure if i would be here after 6 losing raptor seasons. i can’t even imagine the ramifications if the raptors let another superstart walk without getting anything out of them. fortunately, bc has experience in that department - he turned joe johnson into boris diaw and a couple picks out of nowhere.
June 17th, 2008 at 4:11 pm
Steve,
There’s definitely a chance he lives if the Raptors make no improvements over the next three years.
This league changes too quickly. Just think about how the season ended with Mike James versus the 47 wins and playoff appearance the following season. You can’t script what happens next. Shaq to Phoenix, Kidd to Dallas, Gasol to LA, Garnett and Ray to Boston. Miami going from old and lottery based to having a base of Marion/Wade/Haslem and the #2 pick to build around in the space of 4-5 months. Anything can happen. Toronto aren’t some team in a terrible situation ….. they’ve got lots of expiring contracts and free agency moeny to spend on the horizon. Great opportunities to develop the team. They have two point guards who are in the top 12 PGs in the league and one will be traded. Another great opportunity. They also have Bargnani who may or may not figure it out and is a decent trade asset for the time being regardless of that. Another opportunity. Then you have the man who’s pulling the strings - Bryan Colangelo - one of the best GM’s in the league. Great situation to be in.
We shouldn’t worry about three years because too much is about to happen and can happen. In 24-30 months time we should be looking at Bosh’s situation and thinking about it. Not now. It’s not an issue now. The Raptors have so many ways to upgrade their team between then and now. It’s a good day, a bright day, a day of hope for the Raptors organization.
Daves last blog post..NBA Finals Thoughts: PJ Brown On KG’s Practice Ways
June 17th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Denver would not want TJ he is too similar to AI and there backcourt would be about the size of shaquille oneals left leg.
June 17th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Oddly enough Denver were heavily believed to have given TJ Lawson a draft promise at number 20 (also believed to have renaged on the deal after injury/law issues). Lawson is about the same size (probably smaller) than TJ Ford.
I’m in full agreement that it’s a bad idea for Denver but they could be open to it. A straight sway of Nene-Ford would be pretty interesting. It’d hurt the Raps cap flexibility though so they’d need to find that second all-star on the perimeter for Bosh first. Nene-Bosh-Bargnani interesting frontline for the next 6-7 years. Nene would add a lot of muscle and post defense as well as some solid rebounding. He has a developing offensive game too.
That Denver backcourt of TJ-AI would be the quickest in the league. They might not stop many folk but imagine them running right back at you? With Melo-Kenyon-Camby-Klieza-Smith filling the lanes. If nothing else it would be an exciting sight. TJ would get the ball moving like Steve Blake did a year ago when Denver closed out the season in impressive fashion only to fall in a close physical series with San An. Great fast paced system for Ford, he’ll flourish there.
Daves last blog post..NBA Finals Thoughts: Kevin Garnett’s Missed Free Throws
June 17th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
hey dave,
as always you make some excellent counterpoints! TJ and AI would be seriously fast and George Karl would probably love to have them attacking on offense, but if you go AI, TJ, and Melo as your 1-2-3, then really, who is playing D? It would be like the Denver of old when they were winning games 134-132!
Nene has talent, but I wouldnt touch that contract (5 more years at 10 mil a year)especially in light of the fact that he is just getting over testicular cancer.
Im not sure Denver and Toronto have the pieces to make a deal work.
I do like lots of Denvers pieces, but think that there are better trading partners out there for the Raps.
June 17th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
rapsfan, when you compare Bosh to those guys it makes a lot more sense. I think Bosh battled more injuries then the Raptors let on this season. the guys is only 24 and has continued to get better each year he;s been in the nba. his numbers have remained the same the past 3 seasons, but he’s developed both his offensive and defensive game. he just needs someone to bang the boards with him and someone else to pick up the scoring at either the wing or post or both.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:19 am
I’m so happy this post was made, and the response has been phenomenal…. As you know, I’ve been yelling about this for last month, that more main stream media outlets should be rumor mongering about trades. In my opinion it is the best part of basketball, the games to me are ancillary….
I want to go on record right now for saying main stream media is nuts not to do more of this!!!!! There is nothing wrong with talking potential trades, and dreaming scenarios for the raptors to be a better team. I hear it all the time at the fan 590, commentators putting people down who call the radio and roll out a trade scenario. My question is why???????????????? They should be reminded of a famous line which I encourage those reporting on the Raptors to remember:
“Man is given an imagination to dream about the person he wants to be, but also given a sense of humour to deal with who he really is….” (I know I didn’t get the line exactly right, which is common for me, but the basic idea is there!) Let people dream you negative bastards…… You take that away from us, and we all don’t show up to the Raptors game and you’re out of a job!!!!!
This leads me to a more philosophical point that I’d like to make surrounding talking about trades. During the time the raptors were looking to trade Vince, there was very little talk of trade scenarios. Maybe, the fact that there was so little dialog may have left some of us (and I know the Fan590 was reporting an excellent trade by Babcock! Initially they were cause I have vivid memories of the night I heard he got traded) to think that trading Vince Carter for 2 bags of chips and a snickers bar that never got delivered to Toronto wasn’t a bad deal at all.
If we had more discussions on potential trades in the media and were more inquisitive of this process, it would have had an effect on the thinking of MLSE. Since they do not operate in vacuum, trade talks in the public do affect them, I don’t care what bubble people think they operate under. This would may have lead to an immediate veto on that trade from the Board….
Anyways, I haven’t recovered yet from that trade, only time can heal that wound….
I’ve said my piece but I hope this draws discussion. Because if you guys are like me, talking about your frustrations and envisioning a day when the Raptors are competitive is one of the fun hobbies I’ve taken up. The draft, trade scenarios, these are all elements of the game that are very exciting. Just to remind everybody people like it so much, they started Televising the draft order process. People couldn’t wait till the next day to hear what the result of that process would be…
Anyways, I’m done.. I’ve said my piece… Discuss amongst yourselves…..
June 18th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Nice read phdsteve and I hope you don’t mind but we made it a discussion piece at RaptorsForum. Made for good conversation during the usual slow off-season.
Link: http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/showthread.php?t=2255
Cheers,
Doc
June 18th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
wow! thanks Doc.
happy to see 6 pages of user comments on your site, which in addition to the 20+ posts here suggests that people have a lot to say on this topic.
But sad to see the lack of critical thinking on the responses. Almost all the user comments fail to see the strength of the argument….not that we hate Bosh and want to give him up -but that because he is so valuable and can (and will walk)if this garbage continues, then why not deal now from a position of strength.
I think the readers on rapsforoum got too caught up in the names of each particular trade, instead of recognizing that a potential trade with EVERY team in the league is possible if you are willing to include Bosh. Also, I think many of the posters are guilty of raptoritis (which is thinking that Raps talent is worth more than everyone else in the league does- ie/ Calderon). Jose is an excellent player: smart, efficient, etc. But he has had one good season. This is not to say he cant be a great player in the NBA or to suggest that he wont get 9 mil on the FA market- but to suggest that the Raps are getting ripped off by trading him and Bosh together and not getting back 2 superstars is pretty ignorant.
Must say, this is more the response I expected all over the web when I wrote this. I guess I was shocked initially by the amazing response on this site to the article and how open Raps fans were to trading Bosh if it meant this team got better.
but for people who havent visited the discussion on raptorsforum, its worth checking out!
June 18th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
I can see its summertime.
Lets for a second say you trade Bosh and get the #2 pick and draft Michael Beasley or Derrick Rose or Peter fucking Pan, then what. Three years go by and you won’t have won an NBA title and instead of being #6 in the East you’ll be #3 - then what? Will you again blow up the team because you won’t be closer to a title? This is a viscous cycle that you’re proposing here.
Fact is that there will always be greener pastures in the NBA and the Raptors will always struggle when signing players. Its best to work with what you have and try to build on it using shrewd moves that have an element of risk to them rather than blowing the house up every time you have a bad season.
I think we’re a great rebounder, a second scorer and improved perimeter defense away from being in EC contention, Colangelo should work on that instead of trying to figure out ways to trade Bosh (which would only make the franchise look worse in the eyes of the players).
My two cents.
Arsenalists last blog post..Free Agent camp, more workouts + Final word on Jorge Garbajosa
June 18th, 2008 at 8:29 pm
now that is more like the type of posts I expected.
By the way, where do you play Peter Pan- he is more of a tweener in the pros. Not sure if you can play him at the 3 without getting totally exposed on the defensive end.
must be summertime.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
peter pan would just make me nervous; i mean having michael jackson run around with reckless abandon is just…creepy…
June 19th, 2008 at 5:40 am
This is exactly the reason why you are NOT a GM in the NBA!!!! By trading your top player, you lose credibility around the league. Its bad enough that no one really wants to play in Toronto to begin with, now add this to the equation. Come on man, put the hoop dreams to rest and lets hear some serious rumors that might come true. I am not a big Bosh fan, but after what happened with Carter and Tracey and Camby and the list goes on, we need to increase the stock of TORONTO as a city to play ball in. If we keep trading our top players for younger players who will become top players, who says they will ever stay here and play for Toronto? Stick with the basics. Change the coach and you will see a BIG difference in the team, with bosh. Bring in Van Gundy and let the hairs fall out.
June 19th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Hey Shane,
we can agree on two things: that Bosh is a franchise player worth building around and that Van Gundy would be an awesome coach in Toronto.
And while I can understand that the Carter trad is not ideal- the McGrady and Camby examples contradict your argument:
1st- Camby was traded for Oakley- a trade that actually brought more cred to this team. Its only the last 3 years in Denver that CAmby has turned his career around. Before that he was just a SOFT, whiner who was a waste of the #2 pick.
2nd- the problem with McGrady is that WE DIDNT TRADE HIM when we had the chacne. Everyone knew he was going to tbe great. Everyone knew he was goign to get a max offer and become a cornerstone to a franchise….AND Toronto made the mistake of believing that his loyalty to this city would keep him here, instead of dealing from a position of strenght and trading him at the deadline for a series of pieces to help help the team.
LET ME SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME: no one wants to see Bosh go. No one thinks Bosh sucks. Instead this article is suggesting that IF (and its a big if, but the evidence is not on BC’s side right now) Colangelo is not goign to make some REAL moves to make this team a LEGIT contender (and buying out Garbo and not firing Mitchel so far dont look like super moves) THEN Toronto fans need to suck it up and realize that not only is this team headed back to the lottery very soon, but the cornerstone -CB4- is likely going to walk. SO why not deal him now- when there is no sense of urgency- when you are in a position of strength- when so many teams are lookign to make big moves- and when you dont have to accept a low ball offer because he is 2 years away from opting out?
Come on Raps fans- stop drinking the Kool-aid. Im simply asking why not? Cant we move past the fact that McGrady and Carter, and Stoudamire didnt want to stay here- and instead focus on what we need to do to win a championship. I agree the odds are higher on winning if Bosh is here- BUT that doesn tmena you hide your head int he sand and pretend that he is going to be here forever- no matter what.
Now, one week from now, after the draft- we can re-assess. Once BC has made some moves (and I imagine he will)- once he has drafted some talent (remember we had no #1 pick last year)- and once we acn get a clearer picture of the plan moving forward, then I would certainly be willing to recant my statment and take my Bosh jersey out of my closet and wear it proudly…..but unitl WE SEE THE MOVES……TRADE BOSH NOW!!!
June 19th, 2008 at 9:55 am
THE PASSION THAT UNITES US ALL!!!!!
June 19th, 2008 at 11:50 am
you have a bosh jersey??? lol
i’m super anxious for the upcoming week. i suspect a couple small trades, a euro being drafted, and another euro being signed. call me the ultimate raptors pessimist.
June 19th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
I agree with Raps Fan, this week determines it all and I also am excited but I do not see the Euro experiment going any farther. I see one big trade that lands the raps higher in the draft.
According to ESPN.com, word out of Phoenix is that they want another draft pick (up or down) and also want a point guard of the future to run behind Nash. They are shopping the idea of trading Diaw or Barbosa.
My question is, do you think the Raps should try and make a move for these players and if so, which players (plus the #17) from the Raps could get this deal done?
June 19th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
The Suns won’t trade both Diaw and Barbosa, so if you could pick, which would you choose?
June 19th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
You act like Bosh is one of the top 5 in the NBA…hes maybe a top 5 in his position…but you basically saying you want SO MUCH for just Bosh..
#1. Bosh to Heat..the Heat would have to be HIGH to trade Marion,#2 pick, and Haslem for Bosh, Calderon and Parker..Marion is better than Bosh, and whoever goes #2 is better than Calderon and Parker combined.
#2 Bosh to Bulls..again, thats way to much..i never heard of Moon until the dunk contest, and Bosh is beeter than Deng, but with the #1 pick, your trippin.
3. Bosh to Denver..AGAIN, stupid..Bosh isnt better than either Camby or Carmelo..Bosh and Calderon combined arent better than either of them.
4. Bosh to Pistons..dumb..Wallace, Prince and #29 pick for basically Bosh..Calderon and Rasho arent anything good..
you are asking WAY TO MUCH for so little.
June 19th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Bosh is an overrated choker who has plateaued. He’s a great number 2 guy…but the Raptors are going to be like Minnesota with Garnett or Memphis with Gasol if they rely on Bosh alone to lead them anywhere.
We need a MUCH stronger team all around….you can’t have your only All Star franchise player be a guy who chokes in major competition.
Ford had better be gone next year.
Either trade Bosh for get a MUCH stronger, tougher wing to be the true leader..like Pierce to Garnett and Kobe to Gasol.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:11 pm
i wouldn’t call bosh a chocker, he’s had about 12 playoff games under his belt, and was showing improvement from last season.
i also wouldn’t say marion is better then bosh, in fact he isn’t on the same level right now. next season will be a big disapointment for marion fans now that nash isn’t his running mate.
June 20th, 2008 at 8:49 am
wow.
first I get emails and posts telling me Im crazy for wanting to trade Bosh and how the raps are getting ripped off in each trade.
then, I start getting emails and posts telling me Im a moron and that no team would make those trades cause Bosh is a choker!
The internet is amazing- it gives everyone a voice!
I only have to say one thing as a counterpoint….
If you really think Camby is better than Bosh or that Miami wouldnt trade Marion + the #2 to get its hands on Bosh, or that Deng is on par with Bosh…then its time to put the pipe down and call it a day….you’re done son.
June 20th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Hey Gino,
thought you might like to know that the Arizona Republic is reporting today:
“A Diaw trade possibility involved Toronto, where talk centered on Diaw leaving for point guard T.J. Ford and the Raptors’ No. 17 pick in Thursday’s draft. Talks cooled but might reignite with Terry Porter aboard. In Porter’s first season as Milwaukee’s head coach, Ford helped the Bucks to a 41-41 playoff season.” — The Arizona Republic (taken from espn.com)
hasnt BC already overpaid once for Diaw? Ford +17 I think is too much.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:19 am
I agree phd. I wouldn’t pull the trigger on that deal; perhaps straight up. Point gaurds are always a hot commodity. Besides, Diaw doesn’t give us the big bruising banger that we so desperately need. I would be content with Marion plus #2 and Haslem deal for Bosh, Calderon and Parker.
We replace Bosh’s 9 rebounds a game with Marions 10 plus. We get the slashing small forward that we need in Marion, which will free up room for Bargnani to play his natural position. The number two pick allows us to draft a good player at whatever position. I know people hate Ford but he is still serviceable, and I think we are bringing in that Ukic kid aren’t we? We draft Hibbert at 17 ( I think he will be decent)or CDR
and We have a starting lineup of
Roy Hibbert
Bargnani
Matrix
OJ Mayo
TJ Ford
Or
Beasley
Bargnani
Matrix
Chris Douglas Roberts
Ford
June 20th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Rod, I couldnt agree more!
plus- Miami would be very happy- they get Calderon to pair with Wade in the backcourt, PLUS Bosh at the 4, and cap space to play with this summer. I think that is a very dangerous team to contend with for the next decade!
everyone wins.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
oh ya, I think Hibbert would be pretty good too, but I dont think he’ll still be there at 17. Bigs usually go higher than anticipated on draft night.
as for my fav CDR- check this out:
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-32-339/Chris-Douglas-Roberts-Can-t-Lose.html
June 20th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
the trade seems good, but my concern is that you set a precedent for blowing up the team every few years, and there is no indication that bargnani can replace bosh on this team.
as far as the premise of trading bosh/calderon for help is appealing to me if the people coming in automatically put the raptors in the top 4 in the east.
June 20th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Hey Phd Steve,
There is someting about summertime…and pipe smoking…
I guess the reason why that deal with Phoenix wasnt made was that BryCo came to the same conclusion about overpayment for Diaw.
I don’t like the idea of trading out of the draft, especially since the Raps at 17 can land a player that, although wont be a star, will be able to contribute next year off the bench, maybe start (Sorry Jamario). But to lose our pick AND our most valuable trade piece this summer in one shot better bring back a player better than Diaw. Since we both agree that the Raps are at least 2 solid pieces away from contention, this move doesnt do it.
I think if the Raps could make it work, I would prefer Barbosa to Diaw, but the Suns don’t look interested in a deal of expiring contracts and cap relief (although they are over the cap). They are in it to win it. With Shaq and Nash having one, possibly two seasons to get past san antonio, it looks like their idea of trading Diaw or Barbosa (their future) is for a piece that comes in right away to help out and a pick to build with.
June 21st, 2008 at 3:06 am
How high do you guys think TJ Ford’s trade value is? What do you think he can bring back?
A starter? An above average starter at their position? High draft pick? Cap space? A young player with talent who isn’t established (say a Randy Foye type)? A pair of solid role players?
I don’t like how many articles on TJ Ford’s trade possibilities are non-specific and how I keep reading that there is interest. It makes me wonder if the interest isn’t strong and isn’t offering significant value back. His injury history and size has got to be possessing quite a few problems, I wonder how large those problems are.
Daves last blog post..Best Penetrating Player Under 6mil?
June 21st, 2008 at 10:52 am
I agree Dave, he has some very troubling issues that a team trading for him will try to exploit BC for. That being said, looking back at the playoffs, think about how many teams need a pg to compete in this coming season or playoffs? HOw many teams need a fast, slashing pg to make the leap to the next level?
There will be some team willing to take this risk. I still believe that Ford is still servicable and can play at a high level. I am not opposed to trading Calderon, since he will bring us more in the open market.
I think, to answer your question, what BC is looking for and what teams are offering are obviously not close enough to make a trade. I think Bc wants to get back at least a starter for TJ, or maybe 2 solid role players. Im sure he doesnt want to trade TJ and the pick for a player.
What do you see as TJ’s trade value?
June 21st, 2008 at 9:06 pm
the raps should pull the trigger on any FOrd trade that will bring them a decent nba player in return aslong as they dont have a huge long term salary. Ford wont be back and if BC can get a player like DIaw back the PULL THE TRIGGER. i dont really like the idea of trading the #17 pick with Ford. the raps need that pick to get a swing man or big man. this draft is pretty deep this year.
Hibbert and Lopez will both be available at 17, but if they raps get Diaw then they should draft one of, if available, Rush, Batum, or Arthur and in that order. DeAndre Jordan is an intriguing pick if he’s available. he draws comparison to Dwight Howard, which is crazy, but you need some sort of talent to be compared to D12.
June 21st, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I think TJ’s trade value is a lot higher then people think. teams need a PG like TJ. he’ll be traded and the raps will get something in return that will answer one of their problems…rebounding and secondary scoring.
Diaw is a great player. you have to remember that he played behind Amare and Marion and then Shaq. he’d be a welcome addition to the raps
June 21st, 2008 at 11:29 pm
How can you trade Bosh. He is a true leader. If you trade him and give me a name that will step up as the leader of the Raps. A champion teaam will need an icon, a “name” to carry the team
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:47 am
I’m really unsure of TJ Ford’s trade value. I think there’s a couple of different tiers of interest and if Colangelo can get one of those top tier teams to bite the Raptors could come away with a really nice piece. If he can’t the value offered could drop very quickly.
(1) Top tier. Teams that are desperate for a point guard (Clippers, Nuggets) and have pieces/players that they would be willing to part with.
(2) Second tier. Teams that are desperate for a change at point guard but do not have great assets. Mainly bad contracts with solid players (Knicks, Miami, Indiana, perhaps Milwaukee,)
(3) Third Tier. Teams desperate for a point guard but have no assets. Only reason to make a deal with them is cap space (Cavs).
There’s also a fourth group that should be interested and likely don’t realize it so they’re unlikely to bid (Minnesota, Seattle) lowering the pool of active bidders.
I don’t see any team giving up a high draft pick (lottery) for Ford so the only picks likely to be included in a deal for Ford straight up are to sweeten the offer of a bad contract/cap space type deal.
So I’m thinking a lot on that top tier and what teams might fall into the category. So far I got the Clippers, Nuggets, perhaps Portland, Sacramento. Portland need a good starting point guard but I think they’ll look for a big defensive guard so probably not Portland. It’s a very small group that could vanish quickly but if they were highly interested Colangelo could get a quality player in return. Any other teams that could go into the top tier?
I don’t think Phoenix’s interest is serious that’s why I removed them.
Daves last blog post..Ariza Exercises Player Option - Returns To LA
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:52 am
Ford is one hit away from ending his career. Why would you want to keep him? Why? Why? Why?
June 22nd, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Shane, I agree, Ford is the Lindros of the Raptors. That being said, how many players would have been injured with a concussion with the flagrant that Horford laid on Ford? Granted, Ford might have been out longer with his history, but think of how his head smacked the floor.
Dave,
I agree that Ford’s situation, and the situation of other teams makes it difficult to trade him, but with the new NBA (As far as hand check rules go) teamms need a fast slashing pg that can create their own shiot and Ford is that. What hurts Fords stock more than what has been said above is that the Raps also own Calderon, who is more sought after. That is why the Raps should trade CAlderon. Ford is still serviceable and can play at a high level. He was putting up all star numbers last year before Horford laid the smackdown on him.
June 22nd, 2008 at 2:36 pm
totally agreed gino, although ford isn’t as bad as lindros. and like you said, he was smashed into the ground, a lot of players would have been knocked out by that, had nothing to do with his back problems.
i’m starting to lean towards to trading calderon because he is healthier, and we could get a lot more back for him. ford is a couple years younger, and was badass before he got mugged by horford.
either way, i don’t care who goes as long as we start the season with the all the teams holes addressed.
June 22nd, 2008 at 4:50 pm
What about the mental state that Ford is in? My concern with Ford is that if he were to get hit again, he will not be able to handle it mentally. Confidence is the name of the game.
June 22nd, 2008 at 6:53 pm
it’s a good point…from what i saw, and this is a non-medical/non-’in-the-know’ opinion, he seemed fine when he was playing. took him a bit of time to start attacking the basket, but he looked to be back to himself towards the end of the regular season.
June 23rd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I’m a very big fan of TJ Ford and rate him as a top 12 PG in the league today. I also believe he could help several teams and be a huge difference maker for some teams. That’s the basketball issue ….
Trade value can be something separate entirely (eg Pau Gasol trade) in TJ’s case injury concern leads the charge (a few examples of injury concerns hurting trade value - Jermaine O Neal’s non-trade to date, low value for Ray Allen, low value Tracy McGrady trade to Houston, the difficulty of trading Quentin Richardson, low value on Baron Davis trade to GSW, Marcus Camby being a throw in in his trade to Denver, Tinsley’s inability to be traded), acceptable but not great contract, and his small size as many teams don’t like small point guards. All those factors I can see limiting the pool of interested teams and limiting the value of the offer.
Oh yeah, one more factor. Everybody in the league knows TJ is going to be traded this summer and that Calderon is the guy Colangelo wants to keep. Everyone also knows the injury history and that there’s the potential for a low value deal so several GM’s will be reluctant to put up the house. Remember the hard bargains on Iverson, Artest, Stephen Jackson as several GM’s tried to bleed the other dry.
Daves last blog post..Trade Rumour - Heat/Sonics
July 1st, 2008 at 1:35 am
Stop the madness.
If I believed Andrea was ready to start maybe I would give this some thought, Even though we have Oneal now and Two bigs don’t always work, it worked in San Antonio with Duncan and Robinson with no Manu at the time. I would trade Bosh for only the following Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Howard and I am guessing they are not available the draft is over so forget about those deals now and realize they were not going to happen and nor should. Fans act like this team as constructed has no chance of competing were are only a few tweaks away as long as our young players continue to get better. Remember fans Bosh is still young Calderon is young and still only had a few years of NBA experience and will get better, Andrea will get better, Hump will get better, Delfino with more time will get better, Moon with more NBA experience will take it to the whole more or sit on the bench next to Derek Martin.
We are 1 player away from NBA title contention. We just need a Bruce Bowen type of player at the 3. Pietrius
starting 5
Oneal
Bosh
Bowen oops I mean Pietrus
Kapono or parker whatever
Jose
Bench
Kapono or parker
Andrea
Hump
Moon
Delfino
Joey G
Ukic
1 player away and not even a superstar just a solid defensive 3 and were 100 percent legit
July 1st, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Trading bosh?? do u see hwo miseragble the timbs are with out kg. bosh is a rare jump shooter big man. a rare PF. i would trade jermaine in two years n c what i get
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Now trading bosh seems bad, look at Memphis, without Gasol, they are a dirt team. Same with the Timberwolves without Garnett.
What BC should do it get good small guys and build the team around Bosh, Like what the Cavs are doing with LeBron, but of course the Cavs will end up like memphis and Minnesota without their all Star because LeBron is going to leave cause he can’t get anywhere far with the Cavs.
Thats what Toronto needs to avoid, is a all star leaving and Toronto blown off the basketball map. BC is doing a good job rebuilding the raptors around bosh. Take a look at the lineup now,
Bosh
J O’neal
Kawai(?) or moon?
Parker
Calderon (or if we can sign Baron davis, but I highly doubt)
Good starting lineup and now we have to work on our Bench
July 11th, 2008 at 3:45 pm
this is the most stupidest shit ever, who in the right mind would ever trade bosh and calderon for marion and haslem thats retarded
Geoffs last blog post..Jermaine O’Neal Press Conference
July 15th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
that is the dumbest shit i ever heard. Why the fuck would you keep TJ over Jose. 2 spinal cord injuries already; a 3rd could come so easy. And trading bosh is just a horrible idea, you are a fucking retard. You really wanna watch them miss the playoffs the next few years.